Is this fair?

No, I am not saying God is unjust. Scripture says 'He that believeth not is condemned already...'. God hasn't condemned them, they condemn themselves.

In not choosing Christ, they choose hell. No choice is still a choice.

They have still chosen that path.

Apparently you do not understand God's sovereignty as much as you think you do.

God's Word declares all sin to be paid for on Calvary. Rejection of that gift of freedom is not sin, it is choice.

In the baseball analagy above, the friend did not redeem the ticket. Would you call that a sin? I don't see a sin in refusing to accept something, it is choice.

Again, choice.

Because they never placed their trust in the one who owns the Book.

 

I heard an illustration once that I liked. Although I don't know how it fits in with election. This illustration was given by a "modern Arminian" pastor.

Here's how it goes:

This Irish guy was going to the market to sell his potatoes. He had a whole bunch of them in a sack so full he could barely tie the sack's ends together to close the thing. It was so heavy he thought he might never make it to the farmers' market in time. Every now and then he had to put it down to catch his breath.

On the way another farmer, happened to be his landlord's son (the Irish guy was a tenant farmer), came along, on a cart pulled by a team of horses.

Offered the tenant farmer a ride.

Guy got on the horse cart, sat down, and then proceeded to haul the sack full of potates onto his shoulders.

The landlord's son said: "put it down on the floor, sire".

To which the guy answered: "no, sire. you already done me a great good deal of favor here. Let me return the help by not overburdening yer team o' hosses there some more".

wot ?

 

Right, but the LandLORD can pay himself for the tenant's rent.
That is what Christ did. He paid himself for us.

*This is very simplistic.. don't have time to go deeper

 

Your analogy is flawed, and is more representative of the story told in Matthew 18:23-35. Your error is that you likened the landlord to God, and the friend like Jesus; the landlord is more like the wicked servant.

This is how I see your story, based on scripture:

Nah, that ain't very good, either. As they say, no analogy is perfect, only somewhat explanatory.

So let's explain it like this: How many times did Jesus make reference to the fact that the wheat and the chaff will be separated?

 

Again brother Dale,

It is not for us to decide or judge or imply whether God is fair or not with the way He does things. He is God we are not. He makes the rules.

We can develope all the analogies we want and that is not going to change the facts no matter what they may be.
That applies to myself as well.

We are having a difference of opinion of how to interpret Scripture concerning the sovereignty of God and the responsiblity of man and how to integrate the two concepts into an understandable entity.

What is missing on your part (IMO) between what we believe is the distinction between propitiation and justification. This gap can not be filled up with our analogies drawn from this life but from Scripture alone.

Propitiation is the satisfaction of the wrath of God concerning the sin of the world.

Justification is the distribution of the benefit of that satisfaction to specific members of the world: The whosoever wills.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.​

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

KJV 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
​

"It is finished". God's wrath was poured out upon His Son for the human race when He died on the cross. The resurrection of Jesus Christ on the third day was the proof that this wrath had been propitiated. This propitiation for sin opened the door of heaven to the human race and the decree went out that whosoever will of that world of the fallen human race may enter.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.​

What He does with the whosoever wonts (For whom Christ died and purchased from sin and death as well) is His business.
If He shuts them out of heaven and has a place of eternal separation outside of heaven for them that is His business.​

Revelation 22
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.​

God defines what is fair and not fair, what is just and what is unjust. ​

The truth from Scripture is that He wants all men to be saved:

1 Timothy 2

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.​

NKJV Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.​

HankD

 

Well, Dale, I thought it was a pretty good analogy (of course, no human analogy is perfect, as has been pointed out). This is the question that no one has ever been able to answer for me, either (why God, being just, would demand payment twice for the same sins). People just seem to want to dance all around the question without addressing it directly. That says something to me.

 

Belvedere,

As has been pointed out, and apparently ignored, is the sins have been paid for. They go to hell because of choice... plain and simple.

 

How many times did Jesus die and shed His precious blood for our sins? Was that death and shed blood sufficient to pay for all our sins? Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This was accomplished at Calvary---Calvary covered it all!

 

So why is there this need for "payment" at all? Could not God, in his omnipotency, designed it so that he could forgive without killing and shedding blood? It is, after all, his choice. And if he requires death to forgive, can he truly be called "good"? Questions to ponder.

 

Absolutely, sin is transgression against God so he can choose any penalty he wishes. However He did set a price/ransom which was sinless blood which was a debt no man could pay so He sent his son to pay the price.

 

The problem is that people don't agree on what was covered by Christ's death. You obviously don't mean that it covered all sins of all people completely...I know you're not a universalist. It comes down to the question that Dale has asked: who limits the atonement...God or man?

 

The atonement is not limited by God, nor is it limited by man.

Christ paid the price for all mankind. God was satsified with that price that His Son paid.

Nothing complicated about it at all.

 

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Isaiah 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

The above verses explain why there needed to be a sacrifice....a penalty had to be paid...and without the shedding of blood there is NO remission. The sacrifice of Christ on the cross of Calvary washes away ALL sin. Those who reject that sacrifice go to hell with their sin PAID for!

 

If I didn't mean that the atonement of Christ covered all the sins of all people for all time, I would not have said it...and God would not have said it in His Word.

 

So all people get to go to Heaven... this is universalism. I know you don't believe that.

What do you mean by "covered?" I believe that Christ paid for all sins, but not everyone will accept the payment.

Sins have to be paid for. We all agree.

Christ died to pay for sins. We all agree.

Not everyone will accept Christ's payment of sin... we all agree

Not everyone is covered by the blood... only the redeemed.. the ones that have had it applied to their life.

But everyone has access to this payment.

If everyone was already covered by his blood, then everyone will go to Heaven.

Only the ones that accept the atonement get to go to Heaven.

Now the question is, "who limits the atonement?"

I say we do. We decide whether or not we want the ledger marked as "paid in full"
The Calvinist will say, God decides....

 

Because many place their trust in false doctrines instead of Christ's Word.

God pours out His wrath on the wicked because of their rejection of the Truth... His Son.

God does not send anyone to hell. They choose to go there on their own. Their sins were forgiven on the cross. Their rejection of Christ... again, their choice... is why they go to hell.

 

Jesus said:
Jhn 8:24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am [He], you will die in your sins."

The sacrifice has been made and accepted by God, but the blood must be applied. Just as the Israelites had to apply the lamb's blood to the door posts, we must apply the blood of the true Lamb through faith.

It's not complicated.

 

No one limits the atonement. Regardless whether the person rejects or accepts, the payment was made.

If they go to hell, they go with their sins paid for.