Is this really true?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by TBLADY, May 21, 2007.

  1. TBLADY

    TBLADY
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    I have heard conflicting thoughts on whether or not anything BAD that happens to a Christian must first be oked by God. Like what happened to Job.

    I have also heard that no, man has a free will and although God can and does sometimes intervine in that free will, he usually doesn't.

    I seem to believe the latter, for how do you explain Christians constantly hurting each other and fighting over non sin issues and petty things? I know God does use bad things to happen to help us grow and produce fruit. But I also know he is a God of love and wants his people to love each other and those in the world. Dealing with sin issues for restoration and love is one thing, attacking people just because you don't agree with them or you may not like their personality is another. How can this be from God?

    I was always taught you cannot build a doctrine on just ONE Bible verse. So if the first statement is true where else is this found besides Job?
     
  2. TCGreek

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    Good question. I just preached a series at my church on Suffering and the Sovereignty of God. I used Job's life quite a bit, and the Lord taught me several things from his life.

    Notice that Job attributes everything that happened to him, not to Satan, but to God. Notice also that at the end of the book that it is God who brought the adversities on Job (42:11).

    "If a trumpet is blown in a city will not the people tremble? If a calamity occurs in a city has not the LORD done it?" (Amos 3:6, emphasis added).

    The problem is that we have failed to understand what "free will" is.

    By the way, one sister came up to me and said that I presented God as a "cosmic bully." But then another sister came up to me at the end of the series and said thanks for helping her understand suffering.

    At the center of Scripture is the sovereignty of God and no one can ward off his will (Dan. 4:35). We have to be careful not to diminish the sovereignty of God as we try to understand human suffering.

    Remember, that Joseph's brothers meant evil against him, but God in his sovereignty turn it out for God. He causes all things to work together for our God (Rom 8:28).
     
  3. TBLADY

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    So you are saying God ordains Christians to hurt each other without just cause?
    And for children to be abused in ways that no matter what effect their adult lives?
    I am sorry but I have a hard time believing that God makes everything "good" when that isn't evident in most peoples lives that I have seen. Actually it is the opposite I see.

    So as humans and Christians we might as well do as we want knowing God will fix it all in the end anyway. We are not responsible for how we raise our kids or treat others cause God will make it all right in the long run...is that what you are saying?

    Please expand
     
    #3 TBLADY, May 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 21, 2007
  4. TBLADY

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    I must ask some pretty tough question, cause rarely do I get them answered. Or at least to where they make complete sense to me.
     
  5. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    wow!:confused:
     
  6. Ed Edwards

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    TBLADY: //I was always taught you cannot build
    a doctrine on just ONE Bible verse. //

    Actually, one can build a doctrine on just ONE Bible verse.
    One AUGHT NOT build a doctrine on just one Bible verse.
    People do, but they aught not.
     
  7. jshurley04

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    Suffering Truth

    I have not studied it out specifically, but I would have to believe that the truth is somewhere in the middle of what Ed has cited as example. I can see God allowing Satan to "push" the envelope with us if we have been faithful and obedient as Job was. I also believe that God's permissive will allows us to mess up and suffer the consequences of our own sins. How many times has it been said that you may be forgiven of your sins but you still bare the scars of that sin on your life or you still have to face the coming consequences. I believe that the answer here has to be a balance between the two ends.

    An example of the latter MIGHT be a christian that goes out of town on business and orders a prostetute and then gets away with it, not knowing that he has just contracted AIDS and then the next night goes to get another and is busted by the vice squad of that city. He is probably going to repent very quickly and change his way of thinking and acting. However, he still has to face a criminal judge and still has not found out about the coming AIDS battle he has subjected himself to.
     
  8. Scarlett O.

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    In my personal opinion, I don't believe that the book of Job is so much about Job learning patience or even where suffering comes from, but about God proving that the devil is a liar.

    Job's sufferings came from a conversation between satan and God where satan basically accused God of causing his believers to be "robots"..... following God only because God protects them. He was making a mockery of God's Sovereignty.

    God wanted to put the devil in the place and prove that he is a liar for the millions of people who would someday read Job's story. So God challenged satan to prove it (knowing that he couldn't) and gave the boundaries where satan could not cross.

    This was no ordinary suffering and this story is not typical of why people suffer.

    Job did have a free will. Even though he did nothing to bring this suffering on himself, he had the choice of how he would respond to his suffering.

    People, in their free will, choose to do sinful things that brings suffering upon themselves and others. Smoking can lead to cancer. Adultery can lead to divorce. Not reading your bible can lead to spiritual immaturity.

    Then there is the suffering that comes from us living on an imperfect planet. When sin entered the world, so did death. Our bodies decay, we get sick, we can inherit illnesses from parents, get hit by a drunk driver, have an allergic reaction to bees, or be the recipient of someone's lies and deception.

    God is on his Holy Throne. But God is not on His throne orchestrating all of our suffering. He is, however, allowing the earth and its inhabitants to run its course until He sends Jesus to bring us home. Sometimes he protects us from our own sin and/or the sin of others and sometimes he allows us to bear the consequences whether we have brought it on ourselves or not.

    This happens, not from God's "ok", but from humanity being controlled by the flesh. Even Christians and sometimes especially Christians struggle with fleshy habits....bickering and fighting being one of those habits.


    I don't think it's so much that God uses bad things to help us grow......that would imply that he orchestrates or designs suffering. I think its more like he sometimes allows the natural consequences of our actions or actions of others or the actions of nature to cause us to seek him in ernest.

    For example, some people who get lung cancer never smoked a day in their lives. But they got lung cancer nonetheless. Was it the environment? polluted air or water? a reaction to toxins from a workplace? or just the bodies response to some trigger that we will never know?

    God didn't say, "I think I'll give that person cancer." I believe that God says, "That person is going to get cancer....I'm going to allow it to progress and teach them trust and dependence on me and I'm going to allow it to progress so that his children learn to become less self-centered."

    Maybe that's all too simplistic, but it's how I understand it.
     
  9. TBLADY

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    Thank you all. I had a feeling that would help. Nothing wow about it really.

    I loved your response Ed "Actually, one can build a doctrine on just ONE Bible verse.One AUGHT NOT build a doctrine on just one Bible verse.
    People do, but they aught not."

    This question (OP) has bothered me for years. I hate it when a Christian is hurting and the quick response from a believer is get over it, or just TRUST Jesus he has all the answers, or a Christian shouldn't have any problems if he just reads his Bible and pray...that should solve all their problems.

    Truth is all things don't always work out for good to those WHO LOVE God.

    I will now read all the other post past Eds...I skimmed them and they looked good.
     
  10. TBLADY

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    ScarlettO I want to thank you so much for your insightful answer. I have never heard it quite like that before and it really helped put the truth to the story of Job that is more applicable to believers today.

    I went through a class several years back on Satan and they used the story of Job to PROVE that nothing can happen to us unless God allows it....when someone is hurting they like to pull ol Job out of the Bible and say well if Job can do it so can you. I personally like Joseph the brother stories and how he overcame than Job, cause I will never be a Job that's for sure. Joseph seems more practical.

    I honestly believe how we RESPOND is the answer to it all when it comes right down to it, that is what matters most. I just can't help think about the poor dog that keeps getting kicked and how it wouldn't be long before he is scared of his owner. Or if a child keeps getting burned touching the iron, pretty soon they no longer touch the iron. Hopefully it just takes once.

    Like the old saying goes people tend to do what works for them, rather than keep doing what doesn't. And you can get more flies with honey than vinegar.

    So it would seem to be the same with God and his people...taking sin out of the question since I understand that. You would think Gods people would be more loving to each other, because not everyone does respond correctly and many do get hurt and turn away. The Bible says you shall know a Christian by their love for each other.
     
  11. TCGreek

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    The great Reformer Martin Luther once remarked to the humanist Erasmus: "The problem with you is that your thoughts of God are too human." Luther was right.

    We think we are rescuing God from cruelty by saying how can God allow such things. Our thoughts are truly too human. Let God be. We us learn to live with the tensions of Scripture, while exulting in God. Remember, Joseph. Please.
     
  12. Andy T.

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    God says: "And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose." (Romans 8:28)

    Who are you going to believe? God or yourself?
     
  13. Scarlett O.

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    You and TBLADY have quoted the same passage, but I think that she is talking about something different than the intended meaning.

    You are right, the verse is true and it is truth. It is God's Word.

    She's right. It doesn't mean that Christians are going to have this life of ease and freedom from suffering.

    I heard an Assembly of God preacher explain Romans 8:28 once at a funeral of one of my students who had fallen from his deer stand and subsequently died.

    He said that this verse didn't mean that Christians weren't going to suffer or that we could have an "Oh, well, it's all going to work out in the end" attitude.

    He even said that the common statement, "Well, I guess God can make something good come out of this" is not the correct interpretation of Roman 8:28.

    He gave this example. He said that most everyone loves to eat hot biscuits dripping with butter and jelly. But, it you tried to eat the ingredients of the biscuits one at the time, it would make you throw up. Everyone will eat a biscuit, but no one wants to eat lard by itself, soured milk by itself, flour, baking soda or salt.

    He said that suffering can be put into the context of Romans 8:28 like the ingredients of the biscuit.

    He said that there was NOTHING good about this young man who fell from the deer stand and died. And no amount of trying to twist and bend the circumstances was ever going to make this event good. But, God could use this event coupled with other events in the lives of the friends and family left behind for His benefit and glory in the big picture. Perhaps the "good" may never be known in the lifetime of the friends and family, but that's God's business.

    Again, I don't think she was saying this verse isn't true, but that perhaps the interpretation by some Christians that everything is going to be good for God's people isn't true.

     
  14. Ed Edwards

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    Here is why we should be kind to our Brother & Sister
    Christians:

    Here is an truth from set theory:

    An infinite set can be divided into any finite
    number of infinite subsets.


    A few reminders of definitions:
    eternity - an infinite set of time
    set - a group of things, ideas, etc.
    subset - another set which is a part of a larger set
    infinite - with no limit nor last number
    infinite set - a set with an unlimited number of members
    finite number - a number which is countable

    An example from arithemetic:

    the infinite set of counting numbers:
    {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10, ... }

    This set can be divided into 3 infinite sets thusly:

    1. the infinite subset of counting numbers which, when
    divided by three have no remainder:
    {3,6,9,12,15, ... }

    2. the infinite subset of counting numbers which, when
    divided by three have a remainder of 1:
    {1,4,7,10,13, ... }

    3. 1. the infinite subset of counting numbers which, when
    divided by three have a remainder of 2:
    {2,5,8,11,14, ... }

    Here is an example from Eternity in heaven:

    If there have been 1 Billion Christians dead or alive,
    that is a finite number.
    So the in finite set of eternity (for ever) say for Jesus's time
    can be divided into the finite number of Christians.
    So maybe you only get to spend an hour ever
    200 Billion years with Jesus - that is an infinite set
    (i.e. eternity). You get to spend eternity alone sitting
    at the feet of Jesus.

    But, then you also get to spend an eternity alone with
    each and every Christian in heaven. You better like
    all (each and every one) of
    your Christian Brothers & Sisters - you have to spend
    eternity with each and every one of them.

    Scripture used in post above:
    There being a finite number of circumstances in each
    Christian's life and a finite number of Christians,
    each and ever circumstances (I believe) WILL be explained
    in Eternity how each circumstance, each happening,
    each event was worked by God to the eternal GOOD
    of us (who love Him and are called according to
    HIS purpose).
     
  15. Andy T.

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    Scarlett,

    I do not think that all things that happen to God's people are "good." Christians receive evil from others and sometimes give evil to others. But I believe that all things work together for good for God's people. TBLADY said she doesn't believe that in her post #9.
     
  16. Scarlett O.

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    Well, I hate to be a nit-picker, but...:laugh: :laugh:

    You quoted the verse correctly and therefore you are right.

    She did not say "work together". She misquoted and said "work out". So, technically, she is also correct. Romans 8:28 does not say that all things work out for Christians.....that "all's well that ends well."

    But then, I can't speak for TBLADY or for you, so I will just bow out. :saint:
     
  17. Andy T.

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    I will bow out, too, because my view of God's sovereignty over all things will probably chafe against TBLADY, and I do not desire to be an irritant at this time.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    I may not have all the answers, but I recognize good questions :godisgood:

    I''ll be sticking around, God willin' and if the crick don't rise.
     
  19. TBLADY

    TBLADY
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    I am away for a week in Washington, so I am checking this real quick as I am a very slow dial up. I will read and get back to all this later if need be.

    Thank you all for your post :)
     
  20. TBLADY

    TBLADY
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    EXACTLY RIGHT!

    It is obvious that majority of the time we do not see the good that comes from trails, pain and suffering. If you have lost a loved one especially a child there is more sorrow than any good that can come from it. Not to say that good cannot come from it, just that it can never out weigh the pain.

    The old saying "time heals all wounds" and "there is closesure from justice" isn't really all that true for most, if any.

    And yes I agree Romans 8:28 is misunderstood along with many verses in the bible.
     

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