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Discussion in 'Fundamental Baptist Forum' started by SaggyWoman, Mar 17, 2014.
Do you know if the church where Fred Phelps pastored is a fundy church?
Westboro is a solo operation. While it may claim the title Fundamental, it has no ties to or with any body else. Most of the Fundamentalists I know would deny any support for WBC is asked. As needed, we have spoken out against it.
The Westboro cult has nothing to do with any kind of true Christianity of any ilk.
I certainly don't know any who support it.
Do they fit the definition of a fundamentalist, though?
What definition is that please? I have been and still am a fundamentalist.
What fundamental of the faith require such hatred as the Westboro cult demonstrates?
Westboro folks are neither Christian nor Baptist.
I used to be a fundamentalist myself. I don't mean to seem hostile. I was asking out of curiosity.
There doesn't seem to be a set of definition on fundamentalism. In the past I would have said holding to the fundamentals of the faith (which I do), but apparently there's something more to it and not everyone is in exact agreement on what that is. Are churches and individuals fundamental merely because they claim to be, or is there certain criteria they have to meet, other than holding the five fundamentals, in order for this to be true?
I grew up in a very fundamental church. There has to be a difference between fundamentalist and holding the fundamentals, because even other churches that held the same basic fundamentals were decried as "too worldly" and certainly not fundamental. I don't mean this in a mocking way; that was how it really was at the church I grew up in.
The definition never has been simply someone who holds to the fundamentals. The New Evangelicals of the '50s until today hold to the fundamentals, but specifically deny that they are fundamentalists.
Any intelligent definition of the historical fundamentalist movement must include that: (1) they hold to the fundamentals of the faith, and (2) they are willing to aggressively defend those fundamentals and thus, (3) they believe in ecclesiastical separation--which is separating in the ministry (not from personal contact) from churches or individuals who deny one or more of the fundamentals, or are not Biblical in important ways (such as the Catholics or Charismatics).
Many who are fundamentalists and some who are not will add personal separation to the above definition. Personal separation is the doctrine that in order to avoid temptation and keep a good testimony, we should not practice various worldly things. We are separated from worldliness unto God as His servants. This does not mean that such personal separation makes us holier in any way. The true fundamentalist does not believe himself to be holier from such personal separation, since that would be legalism (something we are often accused of but rarely guilty of).
Absolutely not, not by its history or affiliations or beliefs.
Thanks. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this. But what you're saying makes sense and fits with what I recall being taught.
Personal separation seems to be most associated with fundamentalism (especially the more extreme examples) to the point that some seem to think it's part of the definition (especially nonbelievers), but then the loudest factions always seem to get noticed first by those unfamiliar with a movement.
So then, Southern Baptists are as fundamentalist as IFB.
So are most Presbyterian Denominations.
So are many Episcopalian churches.
So are some Lutheran Churches.
So are Assemblies of God and most other Pentecostal denominations.
The term "fundamentalist" really is not the distinctive, is it?
Very true! Most of us fundamentalists simply go quietly about our business working on that Great Commission, including those of us who have posted on your thread and are regulars on the BB.:jesus:
Not in the sense that you're asking, no. They're a non-Christian cult, so they have no doctrinal similarities with Christian fundamentalism.
Westboro Baptist Church, which is only about 76 miles from my house, is "baptist" in name only. It has no true denominational affiliation. None will have it. SBC, ABC, IFBC, all have refused it's applications for affiliation, though it claims to follow Primitive Baptist and Calvinist principles.
The infamous pastor of the church, Fred Phelps was SBC-ordained in 1950 or so. Westboro was a church plant of Topeka's East Side Baptist Church, an SBC church still very active in Topeka. Phelps was hired as associate pastor in 1954 of East Side, and he was named senior pastor when Westboro opened in 1955. He quickly severed all ties with East Side. As a result, the SBC refused to sanction or affiliate with the church, and it has never had any denominational affiliation.
As noted in post 14, WBC claims to be a Fundamental church. And yes the definition of Fundamentalist is loose enough to allow it on surface observation. But, a closer look would disallow the claim. it has no ties with any body else. Pretty much any fundamentalist I know would as the occasion arise disavow any connection or support for them or their actions.
I am sure it is not news to most of you, but:
It seems that the "church" was mostly his family, with just a few "stragglers." It is also odd that the founder, Fred Phelps, (if this info is correct) has been excommunicated from his own church for almost a year now.
Yeah, he was supposedly kicked out for asking the members to be nicer to each other. The irony is limitless...
Being that Phelps has passed away today, I would ask all of you to show some respect for the dead.
In seriousness, I wonder how much picketing will go on at his funeral. Personally, don't think people should go down to his level, but you know its got to happen...
I assure you they are not Primitive Baptist.
WBC claimed to be many things it was not.