Is World Doom truly Fore-ordained?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bismarck, Mar 23, 2006.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck
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    Deuteronomy 28:1
    `And it hath been, if thou dost hearken diligently to the voice of Jehovah thy God, to observe to do all His commands which I am commanding thee to-day, that Jehovah thy God hath made thee uppermost above all the nations of the earth,


    I get the sense that many 'Christians today are trumpeting the idea that Doomsday is fore-ordained by the book of Revelations. That no matter what mankind does, a Doomsday of great woe must, absolutely must, happen.

    But Deuteronomy 28:1 seems to day, "Hey, if you do God's Will, you will be Blessed and live happily ever after." Indeed, God only sent the Floods to destroy mankind after every thought in their hearts became wicked. And the same with Sodom and Gemorrah, it was their sin that doomed them.

    So, what I hear from Scripture is: "Do God's Will, live happily ever after... do it not, suffer doom".

    Therefore, if Doomsday is predestinated by 'God....

    then that must imply...

    that 'God has predestinated mankind into sin and error so that 'He may then wipe us out.

    Does that sound like Almighty God to you? Almighty God would drive us into Sin... and then destroy us?

    Almighty God is the source and motivator of Sin?

    Almighty God is the author of Sin?

    Please read James 1:13.
     
  2. rjprince

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    The "many Christians today" are NOT trumpeting doomsday! They are trumpeting New Heaven and New Earth wherein dwelleth righteusness!

    2Pe 3:13 - "Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."

    God does not drive men to sin, they freely choose it of their own will as a result of their sin nature! No man naturally seeks God. God is neither source, motivator, or author of sin. But God will be the end, terminator, and epitaph writer for sin, in fact He has already written the epitaph, just not read it for the last time yet...

    "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev 22:11)

    Ray
     
  3. Helen

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    Read Isaiah 24, please.

    God is not the author of sin, but He knew it was going to happen and prepared for it ahead of time -- Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- Rev. 13:8

    There will come an end to this creation, for it is subject to decay. "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare." 2 Peter 3:10

    That sounds pretty definite to me!
     
  4. Bismarck

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    This day will come will all mankind gets a clue, gets with the program, and worships God. The sooner men wiseup, the sooner God's Kingdom will be fully present on Earth.

    You don't seek Almighty God? And now I can't either? Says who? Who denies me the Free Choice to seek God?
     
  5. rjprince

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    Tyhpical amil postmil rhetoric. Can't help but notice a TOTAL LACK of Biblical response.

    ALL MANKIND WILL NEVER GET THAT KIND OF CLUE...

    Man does not naturally aeek God? Says who...

    Psa 14:2-3 -- "The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    Rom 3:10-12 -- "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

    That is the whole problem with all the "seeker sensitive" garbage. It is flawed to the core. He is seeking us, we are not seeking Him.

    Luke 19:10 -- "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."

    Who says, I guess that would have to be God...
     
  6. Bismarck

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    Let us build a logical argument.

    1) God fore-knew the boundless growth of Sin on Earth.

    2) This boundless growth of Sin on Earth will necessitate a Doomsday.

    3) Therefore, Sin "deterministically" grows on Earth. There is no force to stop it. No matter what you do, Sin must grow.

    4) Therefore, either Mankind does not have free will, so that it is theoretically impossible for men to just get with the program, start believing, and diffuse God's Wrath...

    5) or, some force outside of God's Power, and outside of Mankind's Power, is driving men to Sin. We all have Free Will, but who cares, because our Free Will is sh## since were are forced, even against our wills, to sin. IOW, sin "rapes" us and we are too weak to stop it and say no.


    So, either men have no Free Will, and we are irrestably predisposed to increasing sin....

    Or, we have Free Will, but we're a bunch of panzies who can't stand up for ourselves...


    So, what is this force, that is not Almighty God, that you say irresistably drives me to sin? Who or what kicks my ass and makes me sin, no matter how hard I kick and scream?

    What kind of idiotic world is this? Almighty God, who is Good, makes it... but then something "goes wrong" and men just start going AWOL left and right, and there's no hope of improvement, Almighty God will just suffer it until he gets irked enough to wipe it out with massive widespread death, chaos, and mayhem.

    That is a pointless existence. We lead pointless lives. Sin explodes around us, there's nothing we can do except sit here and take it -- just like Almighty God -- until the Cavalry arrives and rescues our pathetic powerless pitiable selves.


    That is a very castrating and disempowering World View.


    The reason there's sin in the world, is because nobody does jack about it.

    And nobody does jack about it, because they think it is fore-ordained.

    God said it must happen, so hey, I guess I'll just sit back and enjoy the ride.

    Nothing I can do, resistance is futile, we will be assimilated, the Borg of Sin are in town, eat it.


    God said sin MUST increase...
    so hey, God said its ok, so I'll just do nothing...
    and hey, sure enough, now the world's a worse place!

    Hmmm...

    "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
    Edmund Burke


    This sounds an aweful lot like a "self-fullfilling prophecy"...
    brought about by mankind freely choosing...
    to do nothing...
    because they freely choose to believe...
    that nothing can be done.


    If the Snake could sell that one, "hey, don't try to stop me because, umm... God said it has to happen, yeah, God said it!"...

    If the Snake could sell that one, we all know he would.


    I think I hear laughter coming from somewhere. This sounds like an excuse to tolerate Sin and shirk one's duty to fight it tooth and nail. Sin is stronger than me? Really? I'm supposed to just eat that fact, nothing I can do? Really? The day you accept that is the day it becomes true.

    "No fate but what we make."


    What force compels us to make sin win? Me versus sin, sin has to win? Says who? God?? GOD says I can't stand up to sin? Really? Sin guaranteed, case closed, has more balls than me? Sin has more testosterone than me? Me versus sin in a knife fight, I can't possibly cut sin up, stab it with my bayonet, and pull the trigger? Why? What force guarantees sin is the superior soldier?

    That is a self-castrating belief. "Oh, hey, I'll just sit here and take it."

    That makes me at least extremely angry. #### sin, where is it, how do I kill it? That's what I want to know. Where is it, what are its weaknesses, how do I kill it dead. SIN = KIA.

    God's soldiers cannot be doormats that just sit back and let things slide. Matthew 12:30 undergirds Edmond Burke's statement. If you aren't actively doing good, you default onto the Snake's team. Laziness and sloth = Snake. "Idle hands are the Devil's tools".

    I get the distinct impression that people just don't bother to stand up and do something about all the wrongs in this world because they have convinced themselves that

    1) it's all to be expected
    2) there's nothing that can be done...
    3) except look forward to it!

    It sounds to me like people are actually looking forward to Doomsday! Armageddon! Armageddon, please come, please come quickly, I can't take the pain anymore, it's too much, Doomsday please come tomorrow!

    I get the distinct impression that, not only are we not manning up and fighting sin, but we actually enjoy the increase of sin on this planet because we think it brings us closer to salvation!

    That's backwards! The more sin increases, the angrier you get, until you kill the Snake dead.

    Kill the ####ing Snake.
    Kill the Snake dead.
    Kill it dead.
    Gone. Bye. See you.

    The only logical outcome to a defensive war is defeat.
    Napoleon

    Think about it, it's true. If all you do is DEFEND, the war is in your court, and you'll eventually get tired, and when you do, YOU get conquered.

    Attack! Attack! Attack! Give no counsel to your fears! If in doubt, attack again!
    Patton

    Patton actually won his fights. How can the "Sons of God" ever hope to do any good for the Almighty if they aren't willing to kill the badguy dead. Kill Sin, kill it dead, get it gone, now.

    Nobody is looking for a Cromwell to lead our armies through battle to a crushing win over our evil enemies.

    If Cromwell showed up today, nobody would join his army.

    We are all to busy tolerating, accepting, and enjoying Sin's growth in this world...

    because we think in the back of our heads it is for somereason necessary for salvation.

    Let me get this straight -- sin is necessary? Sin is required? Without the growth of sin, I can't ever get to Righteousness? What?? ?!

    Sin is BAD.
    Sin is BAD.
    Sin must be ELIMINATED.
    Sin must be KILLED.
    Sin must be SLAUGHTERED.
    Or it will WIN, which is BAD.

    Sin has NO PLACE in this world. SIN = WRONG... cannot possibly be a prerequisite for RIGHT.

    It has to get worse before it gets better? Really? I can't really stand too much worse, how about you?

    That's my prediction. IF a Cromwell were to stand up in America today, nobody would join him, they'd say, "Get out of town, you're GETTING IN THE WAY OF SALVATION.... by trying to FIGHT SIN!"

    FIGHTING SIN is evil...
    because it gets in the way...
    of the necessary road to salvation..

    How does that make any logical sense?

    That's my prediction. Oliver Cromwell stands up in America today... and everybody quietly keeps milling about passively... because we all have to just sit here and take crap... cause trust me it's necessary...

    I'm sick of this menu! John Dunleavy rejected queers at the St. Patrick's day parade! He stood up and did something... and now the world is a better place.

    But hey, maybe we should rag on Dunleavy, because he's getting in the way of Doomsday! The more queers we have in this frigging country, the sooner Doomsday will come! Bring on the queers!

    This is ridiculous!!

    But I sure do see why sin is guaranteed to win in this country. Nobody will do anything about it... except quote the ever opaque book of Revelations... like people have been doing for 1000 years... about why sin is guaranteed to win...

    I see...

    Every loud voice in Christendom...
    is singing one tune, in the name of Scripture...
    woe unto the world...
    sin must increase...
    don't bother doing anything...
    the heavy the artillery barrage gets...
    the sooner it will be over...


    I hear laughter. Loudly. Maybe it's just me, but I hear lots and lots of chortelling coming from somewhere.


    And the day a Cromwell stands up and says, "uh, guys, why don't we go over the top and take out those enemy guns?"

    Everybody will just look at him blankly and say, "Do you have a clue, we have to let those guns keep firing, or else we won't win this battle!"

    ??!?!?!?!


    God != doormat
    Leviticus 20:13
    Exodus 22:18
    Deuteronomy 13:12-16
    Think San Francisco...
    Now think Deuteronomy 13:12-16

    There is sin in this world b/c nobody does anything about it, and for no other reason than that. The only reason the Snake has jack didley on anybody... is cause nobody ever bothers to stand up to the Snake... and for no other reason than that. God is not a non-doer. God is a God of DEEDS, Matthew 12:30. Lock, load, and go!
     
  7. rjprince

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    Wow. Pretty classic obfuscation IMO.

    Did notice a lack of interaction with the Scripture I cited and a NEAR total lack of Scripture references in your booklet and a TOTAL lack of meaningful reference to the ones you did cite.

    Am I going to respond to all of your point? No. If we could keep it more manageable, it would be more meaningful.

    Do not really appreciate your bleeps. Is it like I do not know what you meant? Is that any kind of language to use in front of Helen? or the rest of us for that matter! Is that allowed or tolerated here now? Did not blow the whistle, may drop a private message to one of the moderators though just to seek clarification on this...
     
  8. Bismarck

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    So mankind does not truly have Free Will? Some force compells you to Sin? You can't do jack about it, just admit it, you can't do jack about it.

    You have denied your own Free Will.

    For if you have Free Will, you can CHOOSE to turn to God.

    There is wickedness in this world...
    only because...
    wickedness speaks louder than Good.


    Isaiah 3:8
    For Jerusalem is ruined, and Judah is fallen: because their tongue and their doings are against the LORD, to provoke the eyes of his glory.


    This is a cause-effect relationship. Sin =&gt; Wrath. If God does not compel Sin... then who does? What force compels sin? Logic says, "No force compels sin, but the lurings and beguilings of the Snake." So, if you see Sin on the rise, it's because the Snake is fooling people faster than they get a clue. Logically, you are saying, "The Snake is guaranteed to win". That is a suspicious position to take.


    Lamentations 1:8
    Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward.

    Cause-effect. Sin =&gt; Wrath, Right =&gt; Happy (Deut 28:1).
    What do you say to Deut 28:1??
    What force compels men to sin, so that Deut 28:1 is a priori excluded from ever taking hold?


    RIGHT OR WRONG, DO YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU BELIEVE IN A "GUARANTEED SINKING SHIP"?

    Do you understand what I'm trying to ask? Right or wrong, do you fully and freely acknowledge that you believe that your ship of Godliness and Belief is guaranteed to sink? You are guaranteed to lose?


    Luke 19:10 -- "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
    RIGHT -- THOSE WHO BELIEVE ARE SAVED... THE MORE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE, THE MORE PEOPLE SAVED... LACK OF SALVATION = LACK OF BELIEF...

    Romans 3:10-12?
    HOW ABOUT ROMANS 3:21-24?
    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
    22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
    23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
    24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

    SEE? THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE "GOOD NEWS" OF THE "GOSPELL". SALVATION IS STILL POSSIBLE, DESPITE SIN, BY THE GRACE OF GOD, THROUGH BELIEF IN YESHUA AS TRULY BEING THE MESSIAH. WE ARE LOST, DRIVEN ASTRAY BY SATANIC ATTACK, BUT THE POWER OF GOD IS THAT HE CAN OVERCOME SATAN, OVERCOME DEATH, FIND US AND SEEK US OUT EVEN AMIDST ALL THE MIRE OF SIN... AND IF WE JUST USE OUR FREE WILLS WE CAN BE SAVED. SALVATION IS STILL POSSIBLE.


    Psa 14:2-3?
    TRY YOUR OWN QUOTE OF LUKE 19:10 -- THE MESSIAH IS A SALVATION TO THOSE WHO WERE LOST... BELIEF =&gt; NO MORE LOSING... NOTE THAT YESHUA THE MESSIAH CAME AFTER PSALM 14 WAS WRITTEN. YESHUA THE MESSIAH ADDRESSES THE VERY QUANDRY PSALM 14 ADDRESSES. THAT IS THE GOOD NEWS OF YESHUA THE MESSIAH. "THERE'S STILL HOPE"


    God does not forsake us to SIN!!!!
    God can OVERCOME SIN!!!!
    Through Belief in Yeshua as the Messiah, we get God's Grace and can overcome sin too!!!
    TO DENY THAT IS TO DENY THE POWER OF ALMIGHTY GOD!!!!!!

    Do not sell God short. He can do all.
     
  9. Bismarck

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    Deuteronomy 28:1
    1 If you fully obey the LORD your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, (then) the LORD your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. 2 All these blessings will come upon you and accompany you if you obey the LORD your God:


    This is plain and clear. IF you do God's Will, you will be blessed.

    SO... choose to do God's Will... and then you will be Blessed.

    GOD WILLS FOR YOU TO BELIEVE IN YESHUA AS HIS MESSIAH...
    Do so, love Yeshua as Messiah -- and do what he told you to (John 14:15) -- and you will be blessed.

    You are NOT foresaken and foreordained to sin.

    No you aren't.

    That's the whole point of the Good News of the Good Spell = Good Spiel = Gospel.

    Afterwrit:
    Matthew 5:18 =&gt; OT still holds...
    So, Leviticus 20:13, Exodus 22:18, Deuteronomy 13:12-16 all still hold.
    America is suffering because we are not keeping God's Commandments.
    No force compels us to deny God's will...
    that would violate our own individual responsibility!
    We are RESPONSIBLE for our CHOICES...
    We are CHOOSING not to heed Leviticus 20:13, Exodus 22:18, Deut 13:12-16....
    And THEREFORE America is suffering under God's Wrath...
    IF we CHOOSE to turn the ship around...
    THEN we won't have to go over the edge
     
  10. rjprince

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    You cite Lev and Deut, WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW. This is so foundational that I will not debate it here on this thread, not now.

    America was not given the commandments. Israel was. If you cannot agree to that, there is little point in further discussion.

    Nor is there much point in debating free will or sovereignty in this manner. Goodnight for now.
     
  11. BroShane

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    I never cease to be amazed at what some people will latch onto and attempt to compel others to believe when a little study, with the attitude that scripture forms our beliefs - not our beliefs come first and them we find scripture to back it up - would make these issues a non-issue.

    Bismarck, if what you are saying were even possible (which it's not), then wouldn't you say the book of Revelation was a total waste of both Christ's and John's time and, in the process, making God a complete liar:

    Revelation 1:1-2 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: [2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    If these things must "come to pass," doesn't that destroy your view that things can get better and "doomsday" can be averted? Also, since you quote from the OT on this, notice that judgement and "doomsday" is not a NT concept only. Isaiah and Daniel would be a good place to start.

    Reading you scripture and checking it in context would also be helpful.
     

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