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Isaiah 53

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, May 9, 2007.

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  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    There are some mistaken views regarding this famous chapter . The Psalmist speaks ( in our English translations ) with some words which throw a number of folks into confusion .

    The elect are being referenced throughout . Words such as "our" , "we" , "we all" , "us all" , "many" , "their" refer to the elect . Think about it . Sheep are being discussed . In the New Testament the sheep are only His elect ones . It particularly comes out in John 10 . In verse 11 of that chapter in John it says that the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep . In verse 15 Jesus says that : I lay down my life for the sheep . Verse 28 says : I give them eternal life .

    Everyone does not receive eternal life -- only the ones He died for -- laid down His life for -- His sheep . The Lamb died for His sheep . The wrath of God came down on Jesus for them . He did not die for goats ( see Matt.25 ) . He died for the ones he knew , not for the ones to whom He will say : I never knew you . The Lord knows those who are His ( 2 tim. 2;19 ) . He knows His sheep ( John 10:27 ) , His Father gave them ( His sheep ) to Jesus .

    In 1 Peter 2:25 Peter writes that : For you were like sheep going astray , but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls .

    In Isaiah 53:1 the answer to the question is that the arm of the Lord has been revealed to the elect alone .

    In verse 4 : Surely he took up OUR infirmities . Whose infirmities ? Ours -- not the infirmities of each and every person past , present and future . a specific group is targeted . He bore the sins of His people .

    Verse 5 says : But he was pierced for OUR transgressions , he was crushed for OUR iniquities ; the punishment that brought US peace was upon him , and by his wounds We are healed .

    Our , Our , Us , We -- the elect .

    Verse 6 : WE all , like sheep ... the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of Us all . That means the sins of all whom He was to save .

    Verse 8 tells us that : for the trangression of my people he was stricken .

    His people are the sheep referenced throughout this chapter .

    In verse 11 it states that he will justify many , and He will bear THEIR iniquities . Matthew Henry relates : "Thus He shall bear the iniquities of the many that He designed to justify . "

    Within verse 12 it says that : he bore the sin of many , and made intercession for the transgressors .

    The "many" ( not all people who ever were and shall be ) He gave His life for -- the sin which he bore for them . IOW -- as many as He gave His life a ransom for .

    In Ephesians 5:2 it says that Christ loved US and gave Himself for US . Verse 25 goes on to say that : Christ loved the Church and gave Himself up for Her . The Church and the sheep are one and the same .

    Jesus made satisfaction for the sins of His people -- the same ones who shall not recieve any charge against them -- the elect ( Rom. 8:33 ) . He was made sin for US . WE are the ones for whom He died . He was OUR Substitute . We sing : "in our place condemned He stood ... " He stood in the place of , on behalf of , in the room of , for --- His sheep .
     
    #1 Rippon, May 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 9, 2007
  2. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    #2 examiningcalvinism, May 9, 2007
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  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I wrote what I did in response to your blurb EC .
     
    #3 Rippon, May 9, 2007
  4. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    The world

    Jesus came into His own, and His own received Him not.

    The world is Jesus, but Jesus say's if you disown Him, He will disown us.

    His sheep that He is referring to is believers.

    Jesus came into His own, but His own received Him not.

    They were His sheep, but He disowned them, because they disowned Hm.
     
    #4 psalms109:31, May 9, 2007
  5. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Colossians 1

    The Supremacy of Christ
    15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
     
    #5 psalms109:31, May 9, 2007
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    His sheep can't be disowned . John 10:28,29 : I give them eternal life , and they shall never perish ; no one can snatch them out of my hand . My Father , who has given them to me , is greater than all , no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand .

    You need to read Romans 8:28-39 as well to get a grip on biblical doctrine concerning this .
     
    #6 Rippon, May 9, 2007
  7. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Rippon, there's another verse in Isaiah 53 which supports your view.

    53:11 He shall see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.....(KJV)

    53:11 As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied...(NASB)

    God's justice, which requires a penalty for sin, has been satisfied. Completely satisfied. It is not necessary for those whose penalty has been paid--satisfied--to suffer as well.

    That being the case, one is left with only two possible conclusions:
    1. If the travail of his soul satisfied God's justice for every person without exception, then is it not necessary for anyone to suffer the penalty again.

    2. The travail of his soul satisfied God's justice for those whom it was satisfied. God may justly punish the others.
     
    #7 Tom Butler, May 9, 2007
  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    AMEN to what you said regarding 53:11 Tom B !

    When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish , he will be satisfied ... ( NLTse )

    He accomplished all that was necessary to secure the salvation of all of the elect . No one ewas unaccounted for -- no one missed out . There was a certain number who were justified -- none can be added , and none can be taken away . The Lord was pleased with the result of His suffering because of that .
     
    #8 Rippon, May 9, 2007
  9. J. Jump

    J. Jump New Member

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    In an eternal sense that is true, however Jesus was not here giving the gospel of salvation by grace through faith. He came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Those two messages aren't the same thing. So while sheep can not be disowned for eternity they can certainly be unknown during the Messianic Kingdom!
     
    #9 J. Jump, May 9, 2007
  10. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Rippon

    Rippon,

    Thanks for the response. I have a couple of quick questions.

    1) At Matthew 15:24, Jesus states: "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Are you saying that Jesus' intent in this verse is to contrast the lost "sheep" of the house of Israel vs. the lost "goats" of the house of Israel, or have I misunderstood you?

    2) At Romans 3:10-12, when it states that "none" seeks after God, and that "all" have turned aside, do you infer that this means that none of the elect seeks after God, and that all of the elect has turned aside, and is by no means speaking of humanity in general?

    Thanks in advance,
    Richard
     
    #10 examiningcalvinism, May 9, 2007
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  11. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Scripture

    Jesus came into His own and His own received Him not.

    We all are His from the beginning, we were made through Him and for Him.

    Since we are His in the first place , the scripture shows why we are not His now, because we disowned Him.

    Our hope now is not election that is a false hope which has lead many men to thier own destruction, our hope is Jesus. We are chosen in him, not apart from Him
     
    #11 psalms109:31, May 9, 2007
  12. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Elect

    I'm talking about the Jewish elect who were cut out for unbelief, not the gentile elect who was included with the believing Jews when the heard the Gospel of thier salvation having believed.

    Election is not the guarentee for salvation, because we can be cut out for unbelief.

    Jesus is our guarentee for salvation

    I'm the dog begging at the master table
     
    #12 psalms109:31, May 9, 2007
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Mr. Ps , in what sense are all His from the beginning ? All are not in Him .

    Of course His elect are chosen in Him . They are not elect apart from Him . You speak in nonbiblical riddles .

    You should examine yourself to see if your calling and election are sure .
     
    #13 Rippon, May 10, 2007
  14. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    Rippon, if I understand your OP correctly, you are 5-point Calvinist. If that is what 5-pointers believe, then I could not possibly disagree more. This idea of "only the elect" just deeply saddens me. If you would say "all those who put their faith, hope, and trust in Him," then we'd be on the same page. That being said, I do not debate. I simply state what I believe. I've read tons of reformed, Calvinistic interpretation of scripture. My belief is solid.

    :1_grouphug: <---gathering around 1 Cor 2:1-16.
     
    #14 DQuixote, May 10, 2007
  15. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Rippon simply stated what he believed, too. But he also took the time to give the scriptural basis for his belief, in detail.

    Since this is a debate forum, and you do not debate, I'm wondering why you aren't willing to go beyond your statement and defend it with scripture, as Rippon did.
     
    #15 Tom Butler, May 10, 2007
  16. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    It is pretty simple with the scriptures.

    The elect are the Jews, those who were cut out were cut out for unbelief.

    The Jews has always been His from the beginning, but as the scripture says thay have been cut out for unbelief.

    We as gentiles are included with the believing Jews when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed.

    Believers are the elect of God.

    We are saved by grace through faith.

    God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge without changing that scripture to your own understanding.

    I don't have to examine myself, because I cannot save myself. I look at Jesus for my salvation because election can not save me, it didn't save the unbelieving Jews.

    It is simple the Jews are the elect the elected Jews was cut out for unbelief and gentles who heard the Gospel having believed replaced the Jews have not believes.

    We were chosen in Christ. We we trust in Jesus for oursalvation. God has chosen to save believers, and they are the elect..

    It is like a tree. The elect our the branches reaching out with the true vine, the fruit is believers who are holding unto thier only hope Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the trunk and the Father is the Gardening cuttting out branches not producing good fruit which is good for nothing but the fire, grafting in new ones

    Romans 11:
    20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
     
    #16 psalms109:31, May 10, 2007
  17. examiningcalvinism

    examiningcalvinism New Member

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    Psalm

    I've often said that Calvinists are Christians by presumption, presuming that they are one of the elect in the Father, in an alleged, eternal flock of the Father, whereas non-Calvininist Christians are Christians by promise, trusting in the promise of God to give salvation to those who believe in Him. So when the non-Calvinist examines himself, he doesn't ponder whether he was truly drafted into an eternal flock of the Father, but rather, examines whether he trusts in Christ.

    http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Complaints/cc_salvation.html
     
    #17 examiningcalvinism, May 11, 2007
  18. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I suspect that if you took a poll of the Calvinists on the Baptist Board, you would find few if any who presumed that they were Christians because they are Calvinists. When the Lord saved me, I didn't even know what Calvinism was. Most Calvinists will say the same thing.

    Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, if they are consistent, will hold that the proof that they are elect springs from the fact that they repented of their sins and trusted Christ for their salvation.
     
    #18 Tom Butler, May 11, 2007
  19. johnp.

    johnp. New Member

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    Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

    Having believed No one can come to Jesus unless they are drawn by God the Father. What problem is there for Calvinism here? I see we are included in Christ when we hear, he who has ears that is, unless one is born again. As one is born again the Holy Spirit guarantees to us our eternal security inwardly. If we have not got that belief, the knowledge that we have been eternally loved and eternally secure from the Holy Spirit we should be very concerned about our status.

    Our inheritance is guaranteed to us regardless of us psalms. Walk as far away as you like God will still regard you as one of His because He guarantees our eternal secrurity.

    john.
     
    #19 johnp., May 11, 2007
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Some Encouraging Passages

    2 Peter 1:10 Therefore , my brothers and sisters , be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure .

    2 Cor. 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith ; test yourselves .

    2 Cor. 4:6 For God ... made His light to shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ .

    1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people , a royal priesthood , a holy nation , a people belonging to God , that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wonderful light .

    2 Tim. 2:19 ... The Lord knows those who are his ...

    Titus 2:13b,14 ...our great God and Savior , Jesus Christ , who gave Himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for Himself a people that are His very own ...

    Matt. 1:21c ...He will save His people from their sins .

    2 Thess. 2:13 ... from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth .

    2 Tim. 1:9 who has saved us and called us ...of His own purpose and grace . This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time .
     
    #20 Rippon, May 11, 2007
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