Featured Isaiah on the "Free Will" of the Unregenerate Man

Thank you for your charitable spirit in receiving correction.

Blessings!

 

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but this quote cuts to the heart of the matter. I think we are, at least in some respects, in agreement. I believe that the unsaved man can seek after God, but only after God makes the first move (Eph. 2:4, 5). God can (and I believe, does) work in the life of an unbeliever to bring him/her to the point where they will hear the Gospel and believe. That period of time may take years. But is that person truly seeking God on their own or is God the one ordering events to bring them to the point of belief? Because I believe in total inability I cannot accept the fact that man seeks God apart from God first drawing him. That drawing is the work of the Spirit and is very much the process of salvation (IMHO).

 

This is wrong as I have clearly shown above.

This passage does not say that the Holy Spirit has to "dwell" in you in order for you to be regenerate. It doesn't address ordo salutis at all.

There are numerous different ways in which we receive the Spirit. For example, we receive his PERSON when we are SAVED.

We receive his POWER repeatedly AFTER we are saved.

We do not receive EITHER BEFORE we are saved.

But he works ON us and IN us before we are saved. Part of that work is regeneration whereby we are enabled to turn to and trust Christ.

Once again, you prove that you do not understand the issue.

NOBODY ON EARTH IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HAS EVER BELIEVED THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED.

You constantly prove that the reason you are wrong on so many things is because you do not even know the issues- much less how they work themselves out.

Get some brains, Winman.

 

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BELIEVES THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED.

At the same time, no one in the history of the world has ever denied that the Holy Spirit works on and in a man BEFORE he is saved so that he CAN be saved.

You guys need to learn the issues before you waste time making long, irrelevant arguments.

 

Let me submit an addendum.

I am utilizing hyperbole in the all caps.

There have been, doubtlessly, some people who have taught that you receive the Spirit before you are saved because there have been people who have taught all kinds of nonsense.

Also, there are instances where people received the Spirit before "profession of faith" in the Bible. John the Baptist, for example, was filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb. What we are talking about, though, is God's normative means.

The point is that receiving the Spirit BEFORE salvation is not necessary to have the Spirit do the work of regeneration on the totally depraved sinner so that he CAN turn to Christ in faith and be saved.

 

No one is trying to "divide" them.

What we are doing is pointing out to you that one precedes the other.

It is called in theological terms the ordo salutis.

That verse absolutely does prove that regeneration precedes faith.

 

Well said.

 

You use the words "regeneration" and "saved" as though they are different things. To be regenerated is to be saved, even Spurgeon said this.

You personally said a few weeks ago that you believed a person can be regenerated "a long time" before they are "saved". Would you please explain in detail exactly what you meant when you said this?

Regenerated literally means to be "generated" or made alive "again". No one can be alive again until their sins have been washed away. And no one can have their sins washed away until they believe on Jesus.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus himself said unless a person believes they shall die in their sins, so how is it possible to be spiritually alive before you believe?

 

Spurgeon believed regeneration precedes faith just like I do.

That quote from Spurgeon that you and Jerome keep posting is taken out of context as we have shown you numerous times.

In some cases "regeneration" is used as a synonym for salvation. But technically speaking it is not a synonym- it is a part of it.

I explained it when I said it. To do so again is to let you off the hook for the exposition above that you cannot answer where it is shown that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

Wrong, as I have shown above.

That is absolutely HORRIBLE hermeneutics yet again.

The "die" there is talking about physical death.

 

Not to mention, there is no implication that salvation is not the work of God. This accusation of "works or righteousness" is a dead horse that keeps being trotted out over and over.

 

I am not so sure, look what he said in The Warrant of Faith;

Spurgeon was quite clear that he considered regeneration and being saved to be the same thing;

Spurgeon is very clear here that a man who is regenerated is saved already.

I have noticed that to a Calvinist words can mean anything they want them to mean at any particular time, whatever is convenient.

You did not explain it, and I can completely understand why you do not want to it explain it now.

You haven't shown anyone wrong except in your own mind.

You are correct, Jesus was speaking of physical death, and he said that if a person does not believe, they will die in their sins and be lost. So, how can any man be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are forgiven?

You Calvinists can't seem to understand that it is sin that causes spiritual death. Adam and Eve were spiritually alive until they sinned. Once they sinned they spiritually died.

Until a man believes, he remains spiritually dead in all his trespasses and sins. He cannot possibly be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are taken away.

You teach a man can be spiritually alive for "a long time" before he believes and his sins forgiven. This is utterly illogical and impossible. But worse, your doctrine denies Jesus Christ, because it teaches a man has spiritual life before he believes on Jesus. This is life without Christ. Serious error.

 

Wrong.

Here is Spurgeon as he preached his famous sermon "Faith and Regeneration".

He then illustrates:

He concludes that great paragraph with this:

This is what the Bible teaches. It is what Spurgeon believed. It is what you ought to believe.

No one I have ever known is worse at this practice than you.

You take, for example, the word "regeneration" which has it's own definition and strip it of it's definition and replace it with the definition for salvation.

You do this kind of thing constantly.

I explained it just a few posts above. You ignored it because you cannot answer it.

I have shown you to be grossly wrong in anyone's mind who is at all thoughtful and objective.

You have to have life to maintain life. You have to be made alive so that you can live. You cannot live unless you are made alive.

You will die in your sins unless you believe. You cannot believe unless you are made alive.

It's not that complicated.

Wrong.

He is dead until he is made alive so that he can believe. This is what the Bible teaches as I have shown you several posts ago.

It does not deny Jesus Christ- it denies the efficacy of a dead man's faith. Jesus Christ is the one who makes regeneration possible.

 

He is not saying regeneration precedes faith here Luke, you are reading your Calvinist doctrine into his statement. He is simply saying when a person believes it is proof of regeneration. I would agree with that. The moment a person believes they are born again, they are regenerated. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated.

But he is not saying regeneration precedes faith, in fact, if you notice, he mentions faith first.

The scriptures say faith precedes regeneration;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse clearly says a person must first believe to have life. You even admitted a few weeks ago that this verse "appears" to say that. It doesn't just appear to say this Luke, that is EXACTLY what it says. And Quantum listed nearly 20 verses that ALL said a person must first believe to have life. How can ignore so much scripture, when there is not one verse that says you must have life to believe? You can't show it, because it doesn't exist.

Now, it is true that a baby has life before it cries, but that does not negate the many scriptures that ALL say a person must believe to have life.

Before a baby has life, the two parents have to come together. Likewise, to be born again a person's spirit must come into union with the Holy Spirit, and they become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

It takes TWO to "join". When we believe, our spirit is washed of it's sins and married to the Holy Spirit. They become one spirit, a new creation. It is like physical birth, when two parents come together, a new creation is born. A child is part of it's father, and part of it's mother, but it is a individual, a new creation. We are not our mother and father.

Likewise, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become a new creation. We are not God, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I showed you Romans 8:9 before that shows a person is regenerated after they believe. Until a person has the indwelling Spirit, he is natural, he is "in the flesh", he is not spiritual.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is still "in the flesh", he is still a natural man. No man is spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Then I showed you numerous verses (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 2:28-29, Acts 19:3) that ALL show a person receives the Spirit after believing.

This proves the natural man, or the man in the flesh can understand the simple gospel and believe, and when he does he receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a "spiritual" man.

No man is spiritual, quickened, born again, regenerated until he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and no man receives the Spirit until he first believes.

 

"There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."

C. H. Spurgeon

John 6 :
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me...53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day...63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[Or are Spirit; or are spirit] and life...66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Peter got it right praise Jesus. Following a crowd does not mean you are drawn by the Father only listen and learning from the word of God ,the word of life, the word we are born again by, the word that regenerates us, the word that enable's us. Do not walk away from the only life you have Jesus Christ. Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.


Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

Proof always follows. It NEVER precedes.


And you ignored this quote by Spurgeon:

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate."

That's right. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated. Just like it is impossible to walk and not have legs and it is impossible to sing and not have vocal chords and it is impossible to breathe and not have lungs and it is impossible to think and not have a brain.

Legs precedes walking.
Vocal chords precede singing.
Lungs precede breathing.
Brains precede thinking.

And regeneration precedes faith.


The scriptures say faith precedes regeneration;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Wrong. Because the Bible teaches clearly elsewhere that regeneration precedes faith as I have shown just a few posts back.

You must be made alive so that you can live. Why can you not get this?

No. You are either ignorant or dishonest. Quantum posted about 20 verses that shows that receiving the Holy Spirit happens AFTER salvation. This was a pointless exercise since no one on earth denies that.

I HAVE shown it in this very thread. I have shown where the Bible teaches that regeneration both MUST and DOES precede faith.

You have not even attempted to respond to those posts in any meaningful manner because you can't.

A person DOES have to believe to have life just like a baby has to breath to have life, Winman. Why can you not get this?

Life precedes breath but a baby, once born must breath in order to have life (continuously).

And??

Yep. And???

Ok. And???? You keep saying things that are not in contention.

And??? What's your point, Winman. Everybody already agrees on these things.

You don't know the issues. Calvinists agree with all of this.

You become one with Christ AFTER salvation. So what????

Everybody believes that.

That has nothing to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit works on and in a person BEFORE he believes enabling him TO believe.

Part of that work is regeneration as I have clearly shown in posts you continue to run and hide from.

 

You keep making this irrelevant point that receiving the Spirit happens after salvation.

It does not seem to matter how many times I tel you that we Calvinists already believe that.

Are you dumb or are you not reading these posts thoroughly?

 

In regards to regeneration preceding faith, or vice versa, apparently CHS was just plain ole "wishy-washy". J/K


In all sincerity, could the sermon that both sides have bandied about have been a sermon from earlier in his life, and over time, changed his mind? He does seem to have two entirely different views that are being expressed. Could he have seen regeneration post-faith, and then over time, come to the pre-faith regenration? I ask these in all sincerity. Does anyone know?

 

Brain dead? Naw!! :sleep: Asleep at the wheel? :sleep: Well.......... :laugh:

 

First off, thanks for the "civilness" in your posts to me. :thumbs:

That's good to know.

I agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

I also agree with this wholeheartedly.

God is the One who draws any sinner to Himself. However, many will not want to come because of their love of self, pride, haughtiness, etc. Remember, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.

Can't say that I disagree with this, either. But I do see that man, in a dead state of sin(spiritually seperated from God due to their sins, and not a "lifeless corpse"), can, and does hear God. The dead shall hear, and they that hear, shall live.

We see a triune God at work in salvation. God the Father, sent God the Son, to die for sinful man. When God the Son was received back in heaven to God the Father, God the Spirit came down, and now dwells in the soul of the saved. In reality, we have a triune God dwelling in us, because we don't get one part of the Godhead w/o the other Two.