isn't the ULTIMATE Source of salvation In Classic Arminianism Ourselves?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JesusFan, Jun 1, 2011.

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  1. JesusFan

    JesusFan
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    Know both cals/Arms affirm that
    Humans are sinners
    Christ died for the sins of his saved peoples
    Gospel sent forth to lost sinners

    Don't Cals see God as Ultimate source of Salvation, As he direct elects his own, while Arms see us as final authority, as we can refuse to accept what God offers unto us in Cross of Jesus?
     
  2. convicted1

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    That which I bolded is completely, and patently, false. Some may ascribe to it, but I am one who is slanted towards "A", and do not agree with it.

    Look, when God calls, it is up to us to respond, correct? Salvation isn't something that He shoves down our throats. Show me one place in the four gospels where Christ forced Himself on anybody. As He passed by, He only stopped when someone called out to Him. That's the way it is now. When Jesus passes by(calls to us), we have to call out before He will come in.

    Look at Zaccheus. When he heard that Jesus was coming his way, he climbed up a tree to get a look at Him for himself. If he hadn't went out and climbed the tree, Jesus would have kept on walking, and salvation would not have came to his house. This is the way most "A's" hold salvation, or at least how I see it. Does this clear it up better?

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  3. Skandelon

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    Willis, is right.

    God is always the ultimate and final authority. It is by HIS authority that he has chosen to make an appeal to the entire world, "be reconciled to God." Allowing mankind to respond doesn't in any way negate any of God's power, knowledge, authority or sovereignty. If it does, then one has to ask, "Were God's attributes lessoned when he gave Adam the ability to freely respond to his command? Was his authority lessoned in the garden simply because it was up to Adam to obey or disobey the command?"
     
  4. convicted1

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    And to add to this, Brother, the Prodical son would not have had the Father "run and meet him," unless he first had left the "hog lot". If he had never left there, he would have never seen the Father again. So, man can not save inself in any way, shape, form, or fashion, but man does have something he has to do, and that is repent, and withdraw from sin. Him coming to himself, and returning to his Father is repentance in a nutshell.
     
  5. webdog

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    I answered you on the other thread, but I see you started a new one based solely on this. Here is my response...

    If I go to work, get a paycheck, buy you a gift and you accept it...how can you claim you are "in the ultimate sense / source" the one who rightly receives credit for the gift? That kind of logic is mind baffling.

    If you are required to use something, are given this gift to use, and then use it...how are you NOT "cooperating" with the one who gave it to you?
     
    #5 webdog, Jun 1, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2011
  6. convicted1

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: I borrowed this response from Brother Quant!! LOL
     
  7. Skandelon

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    I agree. Why does the ability of someone to reject God's gift make the giver any less worthy of praise for giving it? And why on earth would anyone presume it somehow lessons the power or authority of the giver?

    If I give Super Bowl tickets to 10 friends and one rejects it, so I give it to another friend are any of the ten friends that go less appreciative of the gift? Are they thinking, "Man, I would have liked this gift so much more if he would have made us take them rather than merely offering them to us?" It really is a baffling logic.
     
  8. webdog

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    I challenge anyone who believes like the OP (and there are MANY here on this board who do)... upon receiving birthday or Christmas presents this year to stand up in the midst of the party and pronounce "I want to just humbly thank myself for these wonderful gifts. As the one who is able to accept or reject these gifts I deserve the entire credit for my new flat screen TV, the new ipod...even the palm tree pajamas I will return. In fact, you should all now applaud and honor me for my great achievement on this great day while realizing how sovereign I am over you even though you were the one who put the effort and time into giving me these gifts!"
     
  9. convicted1

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    Now, if someone got me a new flat screen TV, I'd be a calvinist. Throw in a new iPad2, and I might go all the way to hyper......:smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. StefanM

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    Well said. (Well, except for the pajamas. I'm not sure anyone should take credit for those.)
     
  11. preachinjesus

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    :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
     
  12. Alive in Christ

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    Absolutely NOT. That is a false charge.

    Almighty God is the author and finisher of our salvation.
     
  13. convicted1

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    Now, to give a serious response to this WONDERFUL post! None of us can be saved until God calls us. When He calls, we must answer, correct? When we answer His call, He saves us, correct? Then how are we to glory in this?? My salvation starts and ends with Christ!!
     
  14. Amy.G

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    I get so tired of being accused of saving myself. Web made an excellent analogy.

    Unless I am the Son of God and live a perfect sinless life and get crucified to take away the sin of the world, rise from the dead and ascend to heaven....then I cannot save myself!

    It's so childish to even accuse a Christian of believing such a stupid thing. :BangHead:
     
  15. JesusFan

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    Thanks for all of your replies!

    Will ask it again, different way...

    IF you can freely reject the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will"...

    What really saves you?

    the Cross, or you decision to accept the offer?

    Cals don't have this problem, as we believe that God both provides the means of grace/ and the grace to alow us to always choose for Christ...
     
  16. StefanM

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    You are saved by grace through faith, period.
     
  17. JesusFan

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    Agree with you on that...

    but who gets the 'credit' for it though?

    God for giving his Son, or you for 'allowing" God to redeem you from your sins?
     
  18. StefanM

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    God gets all the credit, from first to last.
     
  19. Winman

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    I have compared it to a man drowning in a swimming pool.
    You throw out a life preserver and yell for him to grab hold.

    #1 the man sees the preserver but believes he can swim to safety. He refuses your help and attempts to swim to the side. He cannot, and drowns. Who is at fault?

    #2 the man sees the preserver and grabs hold. You pull him to safety. Does he get credit for saving himself, or do you get credit for pulling him in?

    But in Calvinism there is one more possibility. You see the man drowning and it is obvious he can not swim well enough to make it to the side. You have a life preserver and rope you could easily throw to him. You decide not to and idly watch as he drowns. Who is at fault?
     
    #19 Winman, Jun 1, 2011
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  20. webdog

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    What kind of question is that? The cal has the same "problem" (which it isn't for either). Regardless of whether God gave you the ability to have faith from conception or the "saving faith" calvinism claims is given only to the elect, who has faith?

    When has the recipient of a gift ever received the credit for the enitre process?!
     
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