Israel/Church Distinctions

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NetChaplain, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    21
    I believe many are unknowingly in misunderstanding concerning the concept that the Body of Christ, the Church, has somehow entered into that which God has for His people Israel. He has always "reserved" (Rom 11:4) Jews out of unbelieving Israelites, to believe in Him, which Scripture refers to as a "remnant" (Isa 10:22 Rom 9:27; 11:5), and to this day they include believing Israelites who comprise the Church with believing Gentiles.

    I believe the prophecies of Jer 31:31 and Eze 36:26 collate in Scripture to refer to God's final redemption of unbelieving Israel, who will consist of Israelites who have believed in God but not in Christ. These are those who will be living at the time of the fulfillment of these prophecies, somewhere during the great tribulation or during the Millennium.

    There is no support to intend the above prophecies to refer to neither pre-tribulation nor pre-Millennium believing Israelites, because the prophecies design the application to Israelites who do not believe, until after seeing Jesus, and God putting His Spirit in them (as it is now with the Church). This could be the intention of "all Israel shall be saved" (all Israelites alive at that time; not those who’ve died since Adam who have believed God - Rom 11:26).

    I believe there will be an even greater distinction in eternity between Israellites whom God saves later and the Church, in that those who are "blessed" (John 20:29 - Church - Israelite and Gentile believers) will be in a parental relationship, with God as their God and Father (John 20:17) and they as His children (Rom 8:16); and the Millennium Israelite (if you will) shall be in a form of theocratic relationship, with Him only as their God, and they His people (Jer 31:33 – a relationship that has always been).

    Part of my reason sharing material related to the Scriptural distinctions of unbelieving Israel and the Body is to learn what the Lord shows everyone who fellowship in His Word through their Christian forum postings.

    God’s guidance to us and blessed be the Lord.

    -NC
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Jeremiah 31:31-33 is the New Covenant which Hebrews 8 says is for all Christians - not just Jewish ones.

    In Romans 9 Paul affirms that it is not the children of the flesh that are sons but the children of the promise among both Jews and Gentiles.

    Paul says that these promises are to be fulfilled in the church.

    But as for Jewish evangelism - I am all for it. I say we share the Gospels with the lost Jews as much as we can so that they can enter in and become the true Israel of God.

    I would also argue from places like the 70 years of Daniel 9:1-5 that no Bible prophetic timeline can be chopped up, diced up, sliced up, have huge gaps inserted into it - and still be preserved as a 70 year or 2300 year or 1260 year, or 1260 day timeline - that also goes for 70 week timelines.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,320
    Likes Received:
    786
    So which verse are you talking about?

    Which does not effect the distinction between the church and Israel.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,041
    Likes Received:
    48
    Paul seemed to imply in Romans that the Lord was at work among Isreal proper and the Jews and also the Gentiles, as BOTH were in the Church!

    So would say that for now, the promises of God fulfilled to spiritual isreal in the Church, but at time of the End, national Isreal will see coming Messiah and be prepared to receive Him and the Kingdom!
     
  5. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    21

    At present, I find that Jeremiah 31 will be effective to the nation of Israel in general and not to the remnant Jews (i.e. the "7,000", Apostles, disciples, etc.), which will already be saved.

    I also believe this is a collation with Zechariah 12:10, which collates with Revelation 1:7 (they will believe after "every eye shall see Him). This will be to "All the families that remain" (Zec 12:10).

    I believe in Romans 9:8 that "children of the flesh" references Esau, and "children of the promise" are the posterity of Isaac, just as verse 7 indicates.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,320
    Likes Received:
    786
    There are promises to Israel that only apply to Israel that have yet to be fulfilled. We need to be careful not to try to conflate them.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    It seems to me that God has told us plainly that there is to be NO DISTINCTION made between the two. Most of the context of the epistle to the Galatian Churches was all about refuting the efforts of the Judaizers, and clearly Paul was letting these Churches know that THEY were the 'Israel of God' (Gal 6:15,16), just as in the epistle to the Saints at Phillippi (Phil 3:3).

    You're insisting on the distinction of two entities where the scriptures say there's now only one:

    14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
    15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

    And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

    and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

    even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

    For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

    where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

    There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

    For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

    15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
    16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6
     
  8. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2003
    Messages:
    2,615
    Likes Received:
    6
    Yep--this sums it up. The Church--Jew and Gentile--is the 'Israel of God'.:saint:
     
  9. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,555
    Likes Received:
    273
    :thumbsup:

    for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3:3
     
  10. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    21
    Hi HYRN - I believe the distinction (Gal 3:28) is in reference only to the call in Christ, not posterity or physical differences, meaning the call of salvation is no longer restricted to the Jews, but now extended to all; e.g. "the middle wall of partition," which separated the Jews and the Gentiles in the temple is removed (Eph 2:14), making all in Christ one new creature in Him, and in one another (new Jew and Gentile in Christ, not omitting posterity or gender).

    Otherwise it would intend there is no more posterity of Jews or Gentiles, or male or female genders, etc. This will not apply to the Jews in the eschatological prophecies, which will be under a separate new covenant that also is of Christ, but only after they see Him.
     
    #10 NetChaplain, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2013
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Romans 9 Paul is not writing to Esau or to Jacob. It speaks to the church claiming that the church is the one that is "of the promise" just as in Romans 2 Paul points to this same fact saying that the true people of Israel are those who a in Christ - saved saints.



    Romans 2

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
    ..



    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.




    Notice that Esau is not a child of Jacob (Israel) and they are NOT "all ISRAEL" who are OF literal Israel. but rather it is the "children of the promise".

    Romans 9

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    ...

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    ...


    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
     
    #11 BobRyan, Oct 30, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 30, 2013
  12. NetChaplain

    NetChaplain
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    21
    Mistake, I meant Ismael. "That is" (v 7), the children of Ismael are the children of the flesh and the children of the promise are of Isaac (nor is Esau in the general account of the seed of Isaac).
     
  13. Herald

    Herald
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,600
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed. God has one called-out people from Adam until the end of age. Salvation has always been on basis of faith irregardless of which Covenant a person is under.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    In Romans 9 there is a focus on "Israel" (Jacob) in vs 6 when contrasting the flesh vs the children of the promise. Jacob is after Esau and after Ishmael.


    Romans 9

    6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
    8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    ...

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


    ...


    30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
    31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Similarly in Romans 2 the focus is on Gentiles vs Jews - as "Israel".

    Romans 2

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
    ..



    26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
    27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
    28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
    29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
     

Share This Page

Loading...