It is as it was....or was it?

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Spirit and Truth, Mar 10, 2004.

  1. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    How accurate is the Passion in the message that it supposedly portrays? It has been stated that this movie is Biblically and historically accurate by many of the "leadership" of the Christian movement. [ I will post that list later ]

    Let's start out with language:

    The except below is from this site:

    http://www.SeekGod.ca/gibsonadvocates.htm


    Q. Mel Gibson said the original languages were Aramaic and Latin. Is that true?

    A. No. That is what he used, but Greek was the language of commerce and a common language, Hebrew was the language of the Temple, Latin was for Roman law.  Aramaic was also a common language among the Jews.

    Q. Jesuit priest William Fulco, Chair of Mediterranean Studies at Loyola Marymount University, translated and put together the languages used in the script for the movie. Is it accurate to the events and Scripture?

    A. No. Aside from not using Greek, which was the common language of commerce, Fulco admitted to "stitching together a language," and inserting faulty statements and Biblical misquotes. He chose in some spots, to switch the languages of the Jews and the Romans, Jesus and Pilate, and used x-rated Latin, all in sharp contrast to what was said on the Official Passion website, Synopsis and Background/ Languages information.

    "All the characters in the film are heard speaking the languages they would actually have spoken at the time. This means Aramaic for the Jewish characters, including Christ and his disciples, and "street Latin" for the Romans.." www.thepassionofthechrist.com/skip.html

    From the Chicago Tribune article "The Jesuit scholar who translated `The Passion'" by Nathan Bierma, March 4, 2004:

    "....Fulco left Greek out of "The Passion," substituting Latin... He also made mostly imperceptible distinctions between the elegant Latin of Pilate and the crude Latin of soldiers, thanks to an X-rated source he found on his shelf.

    "I tracked down some obscene graffiti from Roman army camps," ... "Somebody who knows Latin really well, their ears will fall off. We didn't subtitle those words."

    ...I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my laundry.'...he incorporated deliberate dialogue errors in the scenes where the Roman soldiers, speaking Aramaic, are shouting to Jewish crowds, who respond in Latin..."there's an exchange where Pilate addresses Jesus in Aramaic, and Jesus answers in Latin. It's kind of a nifty little symbolic thing: Jesus is going to beat him at his own game," Fulco said. "One line [in that exchange] I kind of enjoyed is when Jesus says, `My power is given from above, otherwise my followers would not have allowed this.' ..."metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds

    What was actually said by Jesus, was not that My power was given from above, but that MY Kingdom was not of this world. That difference changes perception of the Divinity of Christ:

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Q. Why was there no Greek on the sign, which is placed over the cross and written by Pilate, in the movie, and is this Scriptural?

    A. There are only two lines of Latin and one in Hebrew on the sign in the movie. No it is not Scriptural.  Pilate, who showed he was fluent in Greek, Latin and Hebrew, wrote this:

    John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
    20 This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.  [KJV]
     
  2. Johnv

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    Actually, the verse that says the inscription was in three languages is in two Gospels, and one does not say who inscribed it, and referrs to it as a "superscription". One verse records Pilate's order as that of writing a "title" to be placed on the cross, but does not say in which language. In all four Gospels, there is disagreement about exactly what the inscription says. So to say that Gibson got this part of the movie wrong, you have to pick and choose which part of which scripture you are going to adhere to. Or, simply realize that those types of arguements are simply the splitting of hairs.

    Matthew 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    Mark 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written over, THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.

    John 19:19-20 And Pilate wrote a title, and put [it] on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, [and] Greek, [and] Latin.
     
  3. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    So then I guess that Mel has a better idea than the writers did.......... well...after all...he had two lines of Latin, and one of Hebrew....that does equal three......aw...maybe we should quit nit picking and give it to him. Would you care to venture a guess which one of the writers were lying?
     
  4. Johnv

    Johnv
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    Again, you punch, jab, and duck for cover, rather than address the issue.
     
  5. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    John V:

    Again, you punch, jab, and duck for cover, rather than address the issue.


    S&T:

    There is a whole article of issues posted above that you haven't addressed John. Might not want to throw stones quite yet...... So...is all scripture inspired?
     
  6. vaspers

    vaspers
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    Mel either doesn't know what the Bible says, or doesn't care. His film is a mess of distortions.
     
  7. donnA

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    Well this is a little disappointing. I don't usually pay for this kind of thing. No matter what language it was in does not matter, my money goes to support this.

    So is all this how Mel treats the scripture he claims to beleive in. Is this supose to be a serious movie about Jesus? Sounds like a comedy.
     
  8. blackbird

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    Mel is about as serious about the word as any Catholic can get---he's about as knowledgeable of Scripture as a Catholic can get----you'll need to think about that for a little while!
     
  9. vaspers

    vaspers
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    blackbird my good eternal friend...

    ...why pick on Catholics? How many Baptists and other "Protestants" have displayed horrific lack of reverence for God's Word, and I don't mean the pro-Passion advocates, some do and some don't respect the accuracy and purity of Bible.

    I really believe there have been great Catholics who loved Jesus with a pure heart: Teresa of Avila (said she imagined herself in Gethsemane, wiping the sweats as drops of blood off the forehead of Jesus--take that AC Emmerich!!), Fulton Sheen, Augustine, John Michael Talbot, Fenelon, Brother Lawrence, Thomas a Kempis, etc.

    And there have been some lousy or problematic Protestants: Jim Jones, David Koresh, possibly Calvin (if followers really did kill those who questioned him, some history books say this), Luther was anti-Semitic but I forgive him, etc.
     
  10. blackbird

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    Well, maybe you're right---I think about Bonhoeffer, too, standing up in the face of those Nazi swines---you're right---but you know what??? Whats spooky is this---my church members will only reach a point theologically that I take them---and I want to take them there as doctrinally sound as I can be!! Granted, even some of my members will "lag behind"---and I don't want that to happen---the wolf in sheeps clothing will huff and puff and tear their house down---and I don't want that---so readers---pray for Brother David---that he will be as theologically and doctrinally sound as he can be---so that I can present my church members before the face of the Lord Jesus blameless and holy!
     
  11. vaspers

    vaspers
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    well, don't make them anti-Catholic, or anti-Buddhist, or anti-Methodist, make them anti-sin, anti-satan, anti-Pharisee leaven, anti-Judas attitude, anti-selfishness, anti-heresy...

    ...you know what I mean. Catholics are not all bad, nor are all their theologians totally heretical. I learn alot from Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhist texts, Freud, Socrates, lots of good stuff everywhere. Very rarely is something 100% evil. Satanism is, witchcraft/Harry Potter is, Gay Marriage is, etc.

    Just be careful condemning an entire denomination, when our own is fraught with severe problems too. None are perfect, nor ever will be. I have huge problems with Luther, Calvin, Augustine, etc., yet consider myself Protestant.

    Applaud your intentions,,, but keep it positive.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  12. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    As promised at the beginning of this thread, here is a list of people who endorsed the film, causing great crowds of Christians to flock to the theatres on their say so. I am not sure what movie they viewed in the screening, but it could not be the same one that I watched.

    Here are some snippets of the endorsements by Public Figures or Religious Leaders:

    > Billy Graham Evangelistic Association > Billy Graham, > "The film is faithful to the Bible's teaching..." , Mission America Coalition >Paul Cedar , Chairman/CEO > "...it is accurate and very consistent with the Biblical account...It is not exaggerated or glamorized..",  Promise Keepers >Brian W. Blomberg > "...most amazing images of the real account of the Crucifixion....", National Association of Evangelicals >Ted Haggard , President > "...authentic retelling of the New Testament...It is consistent with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John."....30 other prominent evangelical leaders,...All acknowledged the biblical accuracy..."

     Focus on the Family > Donald Hodel >President and CEO > "...realism of the acting, the setting, adherence to the historical record,..." , Focus On The Family > Del Tackett ,Executive Vice President > "...The film is true to the Bible and other historical evidence,...", Christian Broadcasting Network > Pat Robertson, Chairman and CEO> "...with a few exceptions in total accord with the biblical narrative. It is therefore wonderfully authentic...", Crosswalk.com >Albert Mohler >Author, Speaker, President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary > "....Without doubt, Gibson has based his movie on the New Testament accounts. He drew his narrative largely from the Gospels of John and Mark, though passages from Matthew and Luke also appear...-true to the biblical accounts..."

    The Kings Seminary >Jack W. Hayford, Chancellor > "...evenhanded presentation of the historic facts...As a Bible scholar, I was impacted by the integrity of the film to the testimony of scriptures. ..." , Rick Warren >Pastor Saddleback Church >Author Purpose Driven Life >"Brilliant, biblical a masterpiece."; Southern Baptist Convention >Jack Graham, President >Baptist Press, Aug 22, 2003 > "The movie is biblical,...", The Liberty Channel > The Liberty Channel >Dr. Jerry Falwell> "...for a glimmer of honesty..." ,

    Max Lucado >Pastor Best selling Author > "Thank you for allowing our congregation to preview the movie trailer of The Passion. In just four short minutes, the images and the authenticity left our members spell bound.  Something went right to the heart of those who watched the trailer..."

    Congress of Racial Equality >Niger Innis , National Spokesman >"...directly consistent with the passages of the New Testament...Those who would take issue with The Passion of the Christ would do so because they would take issue with the New Testament itself...Gibsons rendition of the New Testament is consistent with the teachings of the New Testament..."

    The Vatican > Pontifical Council for Social Communications > Archbishop John Foley , President > Associated Press, Sept 13, 2003 : "...I don't think they would be well-founded criticisms because all the material in the film comes directly from the Gospel accounts. There's nothing in the film that doesn't come from the Gospel accounts. "So, if they're critical of the film, they would be critical of the Gospel."

    Crystal Cathedral / Hour of Power >Dr. Robert Schuller > "...It is an accurate account ...", Youth For Christ/USA >Roger Cross, President > "...It is true to the text and done with the quality that it deserves...they will see a true representation of Jesus: fully God and fully man..." , International Bible Society >Stan Kellner > "... staying true to the Scriptures.", Tim LaHaye > Tim LaHaye Ministries > "...It is a scripturally accurate account...It is sensitive to the Savior, Biblically accurate, ... present the true nature of Christs suffering ..."

    Break Point > A Viewer's Guide By Jim Tonkowich and Gina Dalfonzo > "...we need to ask ourselves while watching The Passion of the Christ is not Why are there differences from the Bible? but rather What differences are there, why are they there, and how important are they? ...Gibson based much of the movie on a book by Anne Catherine Emmerich, a nun who wrote about her visions of the Crucifixion. Gibson was inspired by her book and used many details from her account....As for Mary, although she does have a prominent role to play in the movie, this role is consistent with the biblical account of the Crucifixion. ..."

    Dr. Mark Roberts >Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church> Ph.D. in New Testament from Harvard University> Teaches New Testament courses for Fuller Theological Seminary.> Review of The Passion of the Christ > ...."The Passion of the Christ meticulously follows the New Testament accounts of Jesus death,... As one who has spent thousands of hours studying and writing about Jesus, I had anticipatory doubts about the accuracy of The Passion of the Christ. ... I was gratefully surprised by a film that is faithful to the gospels without being slavishly bound to them...Gibson skillfully depicts the historical and theological nuances of the biblical narratives....a distinctive, creative, and biblically-faithful one..."

    Dallas Theological Seminary >Dr. Darrell Bock >Research Professor of New Testament Studies > "... The details are very accurate ...",  Bill Hybels > Willow Creek> "... "Whenever theres a strong work of God, you can always trace it back to a leader, somebody who got an idea, pursued it, paid the price when things got hard, Bill said. With this movie, that was Mel Gibson. ... the silence was broken. The audience rose to its feet, offering a thundering ovation. I believe I was faithful to the Gospels, but I was able to use my imagination somewhat, Mel said in an interview with Bill ..."

    Mastermedia International >Larry Poland, Chairman and CEO > "...The Passion is a historically accurate film ...", Ron Luce, president of Teen Mania,> "..."This is what really happened, what it would have been like to have been there in person to see Jesus crucified."


    Complete quotes can be viewed here:


    http://www.SeekGod.ca/gibsoncomments.htm
     
  13. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Many in "leadership" have stated that this movie is historically and scripturally accurate. It amazes me how people who who are responsible for the spiritual well being of others, can so flippantly endorse a movie without even researching the sources.

    Here is some information from the Catholic Encyclopedia on the accuracy of the mystical sources that are used in the movie:

    Amongst these, the Revelations of St. Bridget of Sweden, of Maria Agreda, of Marina de Escobar and, in comparatively recent times, of Anne Catherine Emmerich are the most famous. Within the last fifty years, however, there has been a reaction against this procedure, a reaction due probably to the fact that so many of these revelations plainly contradict each other, for example on the question whether the right or left shoulder of Our Lord was wounded by the weight of the cross, or whether Our Saviour was nailed to the cross standing or lying. In the best modern lives of Our Saviour, such as those of Didon, Fouard, and Le Camus, every use is made of subsidiary sources of information, not neglecting even the Talmud. The work of P?re Ollivier, "The Passion" (tr., 1905), follows the same course, but in many widely-read devotional works upon this subject, for example: Faber, "The Foot of the Cross"; Gallwey, "The Watches of the Passion"; Coleridge, "Passiontide" etc.; Groenings, "Hist. of the Passion" (Eng. tr); Belser, D'Gesch. d. Leidens d. Hernn; Grimm, "Leidengeschichte Christi", the writers seem to have judged that historical or critical research was inconsistent with the ascetical purpose of their works.


    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm
     
  14. Frogman

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    The link you provide shows the intent of how this film is used.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  15. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Here are some interesting excerpts from Catherine Emmerich's writings. See if any of this looks familiar:

    "Dolorous Passion" Excerpts
    In Line With The Passion Movie But Not The Bible
    by Barbara Wilhelm


    DITC: Mel Gibson has stated that one of his main inspiration for The Passion came from the book The Dolorous Passion by Anne Catherine Emmerich. He has produced this film with an image of "Christ" that is based on the apparitions of the Catholic
    mystic, Anne Catherine Emmerich, who claimed to have seen visions of the passion, death and resurrection of "Christ" which were recorded in her book.


    CHAPTER I: Jesus in the Garden of Olives


    But Satan, who was enthroned amid all these horrors, and even filled with diabolical joy at the sight of them, let loose his fury against Jesus, and displayed before the eyes of his soul increasingly awful visions, at the same time addressing his adorable humanity in words such as these: 'Takest thou even this sin upon thyself? Art thou willing to bear its penalty? Art thou prepared to satisfy for all these sins?'(personal aside: quotes are word for word in movie)


    (I saw) the horror of death and terror which he felt as man at the sight of the expiatory sufferings about to come upon him,
    surrounded and assailed his Divine Person under the forms of hideous spectres? (After asking the disciples why they slept), He then returned to the grotto, his mental sufferings being still on the increase, while his disciples, on their part, stretched forth their hands towards him, wept, and embraced each other, asking, 'What can it be? What is happening to him? He appears to be in a state of complete desolation.' (Jesus then went back to pray and in his anguish of spirit, raised his voice, and gave utterance to several cries of pain. The three Apostles awoke, listened, and were desirous of approaching him, but Peter detained James and John, saying: 'Stay you here; I will join him.' Then I saw Peter hastily run forward and enter the grotto. 'Master,' he exclaimed, 'what has befallen thee?' But at the sight of Jesus, thus bathed in his own blood, and sinking to the ground beneath the weight of mortal fear and anguish, he drew back, and paused for a moment, overcome with terror.


    During this agony of Jesus, I saw the Blessed Virgin also overwhelmed with sorrow and anguish of soul, in the house of Mary, the mother of Mark. She was with Magdalen and Mary? for she beheld in spirit Jesus bathed in a bloody sweat. I saw the interior movements of her soul towards Jesus, who thought of her, and turned his eyes in her direction, as if to seek her
    assistance. I beheld the spiritual communication which they had with each other, under the form of rays passing to and fro
    between them.


    He saw also and felt the sufferings endured at that moment by his Mother, whose interior union with his agony was so entire that
    she had fainted in the arms of her two friends.


    CHAPTER II: Judas and his Band


    They tied his hands as tightly as possible with hard new cords, fastening the right-hand wrist under the left elbow, and the left-hand wrist under the right elbow. They then fastened four ropes to different parts of the belt, and by means of these ropes dragged our Blessed Lord from side to side in the most cruel manner. They led him along the roughest road they could select, over the sharpest stones, and through the thickest mire; they pulled the cords as tightly as possible?


    I saw our Lord fall twice before he reached the bridge, and these falls were caused entirely by the barbarous manner in which the soldiers dragged him; but when they were half over the bridge they gave full vent to their brutal inclinations, and struck Jesus with such violence that they threw him off the bridge ?They pulled him up again in the most cruel manner, struck him with cords, and fastened the ends of his garment to the belt?


    (personal aside): If thou knowest not how to meditate on high and heavenly things, rest on the Passion of Christ, and willingly dwell in his sacred wounds. For, if thou fly devoutly to the wounds and precious stigmas of Jesus, thou shalt feel great comfort in tribulation'. (Imitation   of Christ, book ii. chap. i.) (almost word for word how Mel Gibson was quoted as describing how he was healed of his own wounds).


    CHAPTER XI: Mary in the House of Caiphas


    The Blessed Virgin was ever united to her Divine Son by interior spiritual communications; she was, therefore, fully
    aware of all that happened to him-she suffered with him?


    Mary drew close to (Peter), and said in a voice trembling with emotion: 'Simon, son of John, why dost thou not answer
    me?'-'Mother!' exclaimed Peter, in a dejected tone, '0, Mother, speak not to me-thy Son is suffering more than words can
    express: speak not to me! They have condemned him to death, and I have denied him three times.'(personal aside: In Bible Peter never called Mary Mother. Yet the Catholic Church calls Mary the Mother of All)? Mary was with Jesus in spirit, and
    Jesus was with her?she listened and heard not only his moans, but also the abusive language of those around him?(yet) the
    Blessed Virgin, by a special grace from Almighty God, maintained a calm and dignified exterior in the midst of her sufferings.


    CHAPTER XVIII: The Origin of the Way of the Cross


    During the whole of the scene which we have just described, the Mother of Jesus, with Magdalen and John, had stood in a recess in the forum: they were overwhelmed with the most bitter sorrow, which was but increased by all they heard and saw. When Jesus was taken before Herod, John led the Blessed Virgin and Magdalen over the parts which had been sanctified by his footsteps. The Blessed Virgin knelt down frequently and kissed the ground where her Son had fallen, while Magdalen wrung her hands in bitter grief, and John, although he could not restrain his own tears, endeavoured to console his companions, supported, and led them on. Thus was the holy devotion of the 'Way of the Cross' first practised; thus were the Mysteries of the Passion of Jesus first honoured, even before that Passion was accomplished, and the Blessed Virgin, that model of spotless purity, was the first to show forth the deep veneration felt by the Church for our dear Lord.


    She who had once borne the Saviour of the world in her chaste womb, and suckled him for so long,-she who had truly conceived him who was the Word of God, in God from all eternity, and truly God,-she beneath whose heart, full of grace, he had deigned to dwell nine months, who had felt him living within her before he appeared among men to impart the blessing of salvation and teach them his heavenly doctrines; she suffered with Jesus, sharing with him not only the sufferings of his bitter Passion, but likewise that ardent desire of redeeming fallen man by an ignominious death, which consumed him.


    In this touching manner did the most pure and holy Virgin lay the foundation of the devotion called the Way of the Cross; thus at each station, marked by the sufferings of her Son, did she lay up in her heart the inexhaustible merits of his Passion, and gather them up as precious stones or sweet-scented flowers to be presented as a choice offering to the Eternal Father in behalf of all true believers.


    CHAPTER XXII: The Scourging of Jesus


     ? The heart of John was filled with love, and he suffered intensely, but he uttered not a word. He supported the Mother of his
    beloved Master in this her first pilgrimage through the stations of the Way of the Cross, and assisted her in giving the example
    of that devotion which has since been practised with so much fervour by the members of the Christian Church?Jesus trembled and shuddered as he stood before the pillar?he turned his face once towards his Mother, who was standing overcome with grief; this look quite unnerved her? Our loving Lord, the Son of God, true God and true Man, writhed as a worm under the blows of these barbarians; his mild but deep groans might be heard from afar; they resounded through the air, fording a kind of touching accompaniment to the hissing of the instruments of torture. The cruelty of these barbarians was nevertheless not yet satiated; they untied Jesus, and again fastened him up with his back turned towards the pillar?and they recommenced scourging him with even greater fury than before (personal aside: this was totally against their law of being able to deliver no more than 39 lashes to the back of a person).


    CHAPTER XXIII: Mary during the Flagellation of our Lord


    I saw the Blessed Virgin in a continual ecstasy during the time of the scourging of her Divine Son; she saw and suffered with
    inexpressible love and grief all the torments he was enduring. When Jesus fell down at the foot of the pillar, after the flagellation, I saw Claudia Procles, the wife of Pilate, send some large pieces of linen to the Mother of God?At the termination of the scourging, Mary came to herself for a time, and saw her Divine Son all torn and mangled, being led away by the archers after the scourging: he wiped his eyes, which were filled with blood, that he might look at his Mother, and she stretched out her hands towards him, and continued to look at the bloody traces of his footsteps. I soon after saw Mary and Magdalen approach the pillar where Jesus had been scourged; the mob were at a distance, and they were partly concealed by the other holy women, and by a few kind-hearted persons who had joined them; they knelt down on the ground near the pillar, and wiped up the sacred blood with the linen which Claudia Procles had sent (personal aside: there is no mention of this in the Bible)


    CHAPTER XXXI: The First Fall of Jesus


    When Jesus reached this spot, his strength was perfectly exhausted; he was quite unable to move; and as the archers dragged
    and pushed him without showing the slightest compassion, he fell quite down against this stone, and the cross fell by his side.
    The cruel executioners were obliged to stop, they abused and struck him unmercifully, but the whole procession came to a
    standstill, which caused a degree of confusion. Vainly did he hold out his hand for some one to assist him to rise: 'Ah!' he exclaimed, 'all will soon be over;' and he prayed for his enemies. 'Lift him up,' said the Pharisees, 'otherwise he will die in our
    hands.'?


    CHAPTER XXXII: The Second Fall of Jesus


    Then came her (Mary's) beloved Son. He was almost sinking under the heavy weight of his cross, and his head, still crowned
    with thorns, was drooping in agony on his shoulder. He cast a look of compassion and sorrow upon his Mother, staggered, and
    fell for the second time upon his hands and knees. Mary was perfectly agonised at this sight; she forgot all else; she saw neither soldiers nor executioners; she saw nothing but her dearly-loved Son; and, springing from the doorway into the midst of the group who were insulting and abusing him, she threw herself on her knees by his side and embraced him.


    CHAPTER XXIV: The Veil of Veronica


    Those who were marching at the head of the procession tried to push her back; but she made her way through the mob, the
    soldiers, and the archers, reached Jesus, fell on her knees before him, and presented the veil, saying at the same time, 'Permit me to wipe the face of my Lord.' Jesus took the veil in his left hand, wiped his bleeding face, and returned it with thanks.
    Seraphia kissed it, and put it under her cloak. The girl then timidly offered the wine, but the brutal soldiers would not allow Jesus to drink it. The suddenness of this courageous act of Seraphia had surprised the guards, and caused a momentary
    although unintentional halt, of which she had taken advantage to present the veil to her Divine Master?(Later in her house) A friend who entered the room a short time after, found her thus kneeling, with the child weeping by her side, and saw, to his astonishment, the bloody countenance of our Lord imprinted upon the veil, a perfect likeness, although heartrending and
    painful to look upon.


    CHAPTER XXXVIII: The Nailing of Jesus to the Cross


    When the executioners had nailed the right hand of our Lord, they perceived that his left hand did not reach the hole they had bored to receive the nail, therefore they tied ropes to his left arm, and having steadied their feet against the cross, pulled the left hand violently until it reached the place prepared for it.


    CHAPTER XLIII: Eclipse of the Sun.-Second and Third Word of Jesus on the Cross


    Magdalen, Mary of Cleophas, and John stood near the Cross of our Lord and looked at him, while the Blessed Virgin, filled
    with intense feelings of motherly love, entreated her Son to permit her to die with him, (personal aside: this is Catholic
    doctrine of Mary being Co-Redeemer) but he, casting a look of ineffable tenderness upon her, turned to John and said,
    'Woman, behold thy son;' then he said to John, 'Behold thy mother' John looked at his dying Redeemer, and saluted this
    beloved mother (whom he henceforth considered as his own) in the most respectful manner...I knew that Jesus, by giving her
    as a mother to John, gave her also as a mother to all who believe in him, who become children of God, and are not born of
    flesh and blood, or of the will of man, but of God.


    CHAPTER XLV: Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Words of Jesus on the Cross.-His Death


    What words can, alas, express the deep grief of the Blessed Virgin? Her eyes closed, a death-like tint overspread her
    countenance; unable to stand, she fell to the ground, but was soon lifted up, and supported by John, Magdalen, and the others.
    She looked once more upon her beloved Son-that Son whom she had conceived by the Holy Ghost, the flesh of her flesh,
    (personal aside: these were words Mary spoke in movie as she addressed Jesus. They are not found in that context in
    the Bible) the bone of her bone, the heart of her heart-well might she at this moment be termed 'the queen of martyrs.'


    The Descent From the Cross


    When the body was taken down it was wrapped in linen from the knees to the waist, and then placed in the arms of the Blessed Virgin, who, overwhelmed with sorrow and love, stretched them forth to receive their precious burden. (personal aside: like is reminiscent of Michelangelo's Pieta where Mary is the dominant figure not Jesus.


    http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/dolorouspassion.html
     
  16. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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  17. vaspers

    vaspers
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    Spirit & Truth: I respectfully submit to you:

    You just don't get it.

    People LIIIIIIIIIKE this movie.

    Don't confuse them with the facts. Their minds are made up. Don't shoot scriptures at them. Don't give them references to masochistic psycho mystics and their bizarre desire to "atone" for their friends by having Jesus inflict wounds and diseases on them.

    People LIIIIIIIIIKE this movie.

    THE PASSION is exciting, cinematically interesting, tear-jerking, well-acted, powerful, and addictively fantastic.

    Tracts and discipled lifestyles are boring. We need Hellywood moooooooovies to do our witnessing for us nowadays.

    You just don't get it.

    P.S. Thanks for all the references. Someone ought to set a Search Engine Web Site that lets you type in a name, like "Erwin Lutzer" or "Swedenborg Foundation" or "Youth With A Mission" or "John Hagee Ministries" and then see what they officially say about The Passion.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Frogman

    Frogman
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    Done:

    John Hagee Ministries

    The Passion of the Christ trailers are linked to his web-page.

    If a picture is worth 1000 words, how many paragraphs are written there? :(

    Bro. Dallas
     
  19. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    Vaspers stated:

    THE PASSION is exciting, cinematically interesting, tear-jerking, well-acted, powerful, and addictively fantastic.

    S&T:

    Let me just change a few small words in your statement:

    THE ANTI-CHRIST will be exciting, interesting, tear-jerking, well-acted, powerful, and addictively fantastic.

    AND the whole world will wonder after him.........
     
  20. Spirit and Truth

    Spirit and Truth
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    I have noticed that in all of the promo pictures that I have seen for the movie, that "Jesus" always has one eye staring at you.[ click on the hagee link in Frogman's post ] I also noticed that in the final resurrection scene [less than a minute total] that in the profile they showed, he had one eye showing as well. [sideview] I do not profess to know intention, but I found this excerpt on the internet to be of interest.


    Q. In the Garden there is a scuffle and "Jesus" has his right eye blackened and swollen shut, leaving him as a one-eyed Jesus through out the movie. Is that Scriptural?

    A. No. Jesus was not beaten in the Garden and went willingly. He was taken and bound. There is much speculation behind this one eye symbolism, depending on what one reads. The one eye imagery is found in Mel Gibson's own symbol for Icon Productions. That image search brings one to the "mysterious eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe", which has the same presentation of the eyes.

    Throughout many religions, mystery religions, and native lore, the one eye symbol is prevalent. In the ancient mysteries they worship Lucifer, who is often depicted as one eyed. The image is used with osiris, horus and other pagan gods and many use an Egyptian design. Muslim End Time prophecies suggest that the "evil Dajjal," a false Messiah or Antichrist-like figure, is said to be blind in one eye.

    Some are suggesting that the imagery is depicting this movie "Jesus" as the idol shepherd of Zechariah 11:17. The idol shepherd is antichrist.

    Zechariah 11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened. [KJV]


    http://www.SeekGod.ca/gibsonadvocates.ht

    It is also interesting to note, that the logo for Mr. Gibsons Icon Productions is a one eyed man.
     

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