Jer. 31: Spiritual Israel's Hopeful Future: Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by asterisktom, Apr 30, 2012.

  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom
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    Spiritual Israel's Hopeful Future: Christ

    These articles on Jeremiah are not meant to be exhaustive (that would be exhausting to even attempt!), but just suggestive comments here and there.

    Jeremiah 31 is rich with spiritual fulfillments for Israel, though written in the lengthening shadow of one of their most dark periods. There is comfort here for both believing Jew and Gentile. The return of Israel here and God's gathering of all His people (31:10) is also a description of the building of the Church, made up of Jews and Gentiles.

    No Contest
    The Lord has ransomed us from the one stronger than us, Satan (compare 31:11 with Luke 11:22 and Hebrews 2:14-15). The strong man met the Stronger Man, Christ. The outcome was never in doubt: victory. Christ announced this very emancipation at the inauguration of His ministry, Luke 4:18, saying that he would "proclaim liberty to the captives..." and "set at liberty those who are oppressed..."

    These wonderful truths are boldly set forth in the Jeremiah chapters, if we only put away our dispensational glasses. (Do you know what kind of glasses Dispensationalists wear when reading their Bibles? The mis-perscribed kind that gives them an incorrect farsightedness. Many of these wonderful passages that speak of Christ's present work for all the Church they see as being yet unfulfilled - and only for the Jews! Moreover, they see several Messianic passages as merely Judaic)

    But Christ is reigning right now. Christ has freed us right now, having already imprisoned our imprisoner. This is the binding of Satan, Rev. 20:2.

    A misapplication of these truths dulls the edge of many powerful promises.
     
  2. thomas15

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    Up till now, Chinese water tourture was something I held in the abstract, but suddenly I now see it's effects clearly.
     
  3. Amy.G

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    Really? Why are people killing each other?



    It certainly does. And you have grossly misapplied them.
     
  4. asterisktom

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    Is Hebrews 1:3 not in your Bible? Or Heb. 1:8? Or several others?
     
  5. asterisktom

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    I wrote:
    A misapplication of these truths [in Jeremiah] dulls the edge of many powerful promises.

    The Apostle Paul must have grossly misapplied them also, since he drew from these very passages and showed them pertaining to the present church.
     
  6. thomas15

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    Here is a cut and paste of the scriptures, let's see:

    Jeremiah 31:31-34

    “Behold, days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD. “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the LORD, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the LORD, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”



    I highlight a few words to illustrate just how specific the actual words of Jehovah are for even the simple of mind to understand. I know, I know, it seems elementary but some simply refuse to apply fifth grade comprehension and meaning to common everyday words.

    What about the New Testament Church? The covenant a-mils and post mils think that in Christ we are living in the kingdom promised to the Israelites. They insist that Jehovah broke the covenant, which is clearly address to the Israelites (see Jer. 31 above) and claim it for the Church, forgetting the words of Jesus in Revelation 2:4-5 and I quote: But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.



    So the important question for the covenant hobbiest to answer is is the church any better than the Israelites when it comes to obedience? I say no and base that on even a casual observation of the activities of those who claim to be believers in Christ. The covenant guy's say yes they are in full obedience and will escape the judgement mentioned in the Revelation passage above. I ask this question on the very week that the world wide body of the United Methodist Church ponders the rewriting of their guidelines pertaining to same-sex marriage and you Tom think all is well in the kingdom.
     
  7. Grasshopper

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    You have proven yourself ignorant on the subject thus would be good for you to bow out now. Or you are intentionally misrepresenting what Tom believes which makes you much worse than ignorant. I'll let you tell us which you are.
     
  8. thomas15

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    I will leave the judging to you and *tom but the clear meaning of the English words of Scripture are simple enough for even a 10 year old to understand so I don't have much to fear from some guy(s) on the internet that think otherwise.

    Have a great Day!
     
  9. AresMan

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    I am not a full preterist like asterisktom is, but why can't the prophecy of the New Covenant be given to geopolitical Israel, but fulfilled in the church?

    Joh 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
    Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

    Jer 11:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD saying,
    Jer 11:2 Hear ye the words of this covenant, and speak unto the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem;
    Jer 11:3 And say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel; Cursed be the man that obeyeth not the words of this covenant,
    ...
    Jer 11:16 The LORD called thy name [Israel], A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult he hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.
    Jer 11:17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off [from Israel], and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them [Israelites], and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree [Israel];


    The Olive Tree is Israel. Period. If we, as wild olive tree branches are "grafted in among them," we are then "grated into" Israel. It is abundantly clear that Paul is using the analogy of the Olive Tree from Jeremiah 11:16 in Romans 11:17 just as he uses the analogy of the potter from Jeremiah 18 in Romans 9. The "new man" and the Body of Christ is NOT an entirely distinct ontological body from Israel; it is Israel reconstructed as the remnant of faithful Israelites (the "natural branches" saved by faith) with Gentiles "grafted in" by faith to the same olive tree (not a new one). This Olive Tree is Israel by name. The constitution of Israel has changed from a typological geopolitical nation of mostly physical Jews under an Old Covenant with mixed regenerates and unregenerates and physical circumcision to a realized unity of individuals from all nations dispersed around the world under a New Covenant with only regenerates and circumcision of the heart.

    An amillennial/postmillennial position believes we are living in the kingdom specifically promised to geopolitical Israel because the body properly called "the Israel of God" now (Gal 6:16) is ontologically the same as the antitype of geopolitical Israel. The form and fashion has changed as well as the covenant administration, but I believe it is clear that the apostles (including Paul) treated their recipients as a continuation of the promised people of Israel rather than as a separate "parenthesis" body. We should let the apostles, who received witness of Christ define for us how we are to interpret the Old Testament, rather than vice versa.

    2Cor 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. [see Jeremiah 31:33-34; Ezekiel 36:26-27]
    2Cor 3:4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
    2Cor 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
    2Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


    According to Paul WE are bona fide members of Israel's New Covenant. Jew and Gentile are equal FOREVER, not just in some mystery parenthesis. We are "able ministers of the new covenant" because we have the "law of God" "written on our hearts." We have the Spirit poured out on us in fulfillment of Joel 2:28 that Peter said was begun at Pentecost. This Holy Spirit has now sealed us and has changed our "inward man" though the sign gifts have ceased.

    As one who is more like a "new covenant theologian" and sees radical differences between the covenants, I believe that the ordinances of the Old Covenant are fulfilled in Christ: including tithing and the Sabbath. The New Covenant "law in our hearts" does not mean God enables us to obey the outward ordinances of the Old Covenant, but rather that the New Covenant is entirely internal and not governmental (Baptism and the Lord's Supper notwithstanding).

    I am also against most incarnations of theonomy because the new "Israel of God" has nothing to do with trying to "Christianize" any secular government, but rather with sharing the individualized gospel. Paul said we are "ambassadors for Christ," and are "subject to the higher powers." My political beliefs are mostly Constitutional libertarian and focused on the "nonagression principle." Christianity should be allowed to thrive legally and express itself legally, but not necessarily be enforced by law.
     
  10. AresMan

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    thomas, what did Jesus mean with these statements?

    Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
    Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
    Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
    Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
     
  11. thomas15

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    The Word of God continues in Jeremiah in cut n paste...
    Jeremiah 31:35-36

    Thus says the LORD,
    Who gives the sun for light by day
    And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night,
    Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar;
    The LORD of hosts is His name:
    “If this fixed order departs
    From before Me,” declares the LORD,
    “Then the offspring of Israel also will cease
    From being a nation before Me forever.”

    Thus says the LORD,

    “If the heavens above can be measured
    And the foundations of the earth searched out below,
    Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel
    For all that they have done,
    ” declares the LORD.

    Seems simple enough. In answer to the question when did Jehovah cast out/ reject his people Israel whom he loved? The simple answer found in Jeremiah, where the New Covenant is introduced. Jehovah states in plain English that the nation will never cease to exist before Him. Is the Church, the body of believers a nation or an assembly? Does the law of Jehovah live in the hearts of the Church? How many Christians on the Baptist Board have the Law living in their hearts?

    In the New Testament we read in Romans 11:1-2 (Paul speaking) I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

    Plain and simple.
     
  12. Iconoclast

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    Yes....The church is the Christian israel of God now.Jesus is the true Israel,and us in Him.

    Yes....it does....bible believing Christians have a new heart with the Law in it.
    They keep the Ten commandments,and all the ways those ten commandments are expanded ,under Christ. Mosaic commandments for physical Ot Israel have passed away....Nt commands expand the decalogue for Nt Israel of God.
    Failure to understand this is why dispensationalism fails big time. it leads to antinomianism.

    All real christians have the law in their hearts ,and a desire to obey it. false nominal christians...resist God's law...and replace it with legalism ,of man made do's and don'ts.
     
    #12 Iconoclast, May 1, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: May 1, 2012
  13. Grasshopper

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  14. Iconoclast

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  15. AresMan

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    What about this nation?

    Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

    43Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


    Many recognize that this "nation" is "the church," which is not a geopolitical entity. Jesus meant that God would take "the kingdom of God" from geopolitical Israel and give it to "a nation" consisting of many Gentiles (although Jew and Gentile are equal). This was prophesied in Scripture.

    1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
    1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
    ...
    1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
    1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
    1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
    1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
    1Pe 2:10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
    1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;


    It seems that Peter calls these "strangers scattered throughout" "an holy nation." A "nation" to God does not always have to mean a geopolitical unit with its own civil government. A "nation" can be a group of people scattered throughout the world that have something in common before God.

    When God promised that Israel would not cease to be a "nation," He was referring to the existence of the people themselves, not a geopolitical entity. This is what Paul meant when he made the statement you quote below:

    God did not cast away His people as Paul explains because Paul himself was a physical Israelite who served God. Paul was proof that God would never allow Abraham's physical descendants to be utterly destroyed. Paul continues to explain by comparing himself with Elijah:

    Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
    Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
    Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
    Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


    If "the church" is ontologically distinct from Israel, Paul's reply to the question in verse is a non sequitur. First, Paul argues that God did not break His promise to preserve His people (physical Jews in particular) because Paul was an Israelite AND he believed in Messiah. Paul then continues that not only is he faithful, but just like Elijah there were more faithful than realized. Elijah feared that God's promise to Israel would be broken because he thought he was the only true Israelite left at the time and that it was only a matter of time before Jezebel would kill him, completely ending Abraham's physical progeny as a people of God. God told Elijah that He had reserved to Himself 7000 who would remain as God-followers. Paul, then says that even so there is a remnant "according to the election of grace." I believe it is obvious that this "remnant" had to be all those faithful Jews who believed in Jesus during His earthly ministry and those who were saved from Pentecost until that time.

    Paul then explains that the Olive Tree of Israel was morphing from a geopolitical nation of "natural branches" to one in which branches were broken off (Jeremiah 11:16) and God was grafting Gentiles "among them" into the same olive tree (Israel). The promises of God to Abraham was that he would be "the father of many nations." This promise is fulfilled in Christ and all those who are of faith "in every nation" (Acts 10:34-36) are "the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7)
     
  16. revmwc

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    Do you keep the Sabbath as laid out by Moses?
     
  17. Yeshua1

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    Actually, not the law in our hearts, but having Christ in us thru the Holy spirit, as He is the One written on our hearts/minds!
     
  18. revmwc

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    The Sabbath for Israel

    Leviticus 25:
    2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.

    3Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;

    4But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.

    Every seven years the Children of Israel as a natioon was to rest and do no work.

    Exodus 31:13 the children of Israel were to keep the Sabbaths, that would include the 7th Day (Saturday), the 7th year, All of the Feast were High Sabbaths and then the year of Jubile Lev. 25:11. This was what the Israelite was required to do to keep the law of Jehovah in his heart. So do you keep the Sabbath as laid out in scripture which is keeping the Law of Jehovah in your heart and keeping it fully as commanded. The church doesn't keep the Law as Nation Israel was commanded to do and the whole point of this replacement theology is utterly unscriptural. God gave promises to Israel of a literal Physical rule by Christ on the Earth and those literal physical promises have yet to be fulfilled in regards to Israel and the descedants of Isaac and Jacob, as well as the Promise to David that His Son would reign on the Throne of ISrael.
    God established His Covenant with David, the Davidic Covenant in 1 Chronicles 17: 7Now therefore thus shalt thou say unto my servant David, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I took thee from the sheepcote, even from following the sheep, that thou shouldest be ruler over my people Israel:

    8And I have been with thee whithersoever thou hast walked, and have cut off all thine enemies from before thee, and have made thee a name like the name of the great men that are in the earth.

    9Also I will ordain a place for my people Israel, and will plant them, and they shall dwell in their place, and shall be moved no more; neither shall the children of wickedness waste them any more, as at the beginning,

    10And since the time that I commanded judges to be over my people Israel. Moreover I will subdue all thine enemies. Furthermore I tell thee that the LORD will build thee an house.

    11And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.

    12He shall build me an house, and I will stablish his throne for ever.

    13I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:

    14But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.

    15According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

    Very clear the Son of David whose Father is God will build God a house and will reign on Davids throne. Hid Kingdom as the Messiah will be established. Can't get around it being a literal Kingdom upon the Throne of Daivdi in Israel.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years

    The Kingdom would last 1000 years, then 7 And when the thousand years are expired... I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    Appears if the Lord's Kingodm was established then the Great White Throne Judgement has already taken place and all unbelievers have been judged. Then Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    The old earth has already passed away and we are in the New Jerusalem, sorry that hasn't happened and it would have because scripture says it will.

    There is no replacement of Israel as God's choosen nation and People, The Bride which is the Church is exactly that Christ Bride and His believers His children and joint heirs with Him.
     
  19. asterisktom

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    Exactly, Grasshopper. Intentionally ignorant and purposefully offensive. I have decided to quit writing to him. People like him are not even worth the typing.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    NO......
    The ten Commandments are still in effect for all men....The
    Mosaic sabbaths were for the theocracy in physical ot israel.....we no longer keep any mosaic ceremonial laws as they are fulfilled in Christ.

    The remaineth a one day in seven rest.....hebrews4:9...in Christ.....as part of the original ten commandments which were before Sinai.....from creation rest...to new creation rest....
    We get to delight in the Lord's day now....not a burden but a delight:wavey::wavey:
     

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