Jesus as the criterion

I want to apologize for an error. This incident occured on July 4, 1987 - not 1986.

By the time I realized my error, the time had expired for the edit. I'm getting old and the years are starting to run together!

 

I'm still waiting on that public apology, Mark...

Do you have enough integrity to do it?

 

Baptist Believer, could you give me an example of something you know about Christ that is not revealed in the Scripture. Thank you.

 

I don’t think I know anything about Christ that is not already revealed in scripture. Of course this question doesn’t have much to do with our discussion because I am advocating that I know Christ in a way that is distinct from the scripture. (Of course in Southern Baptist circles, the question you posed is often thrown around to discredit those who oppose the changes to the Baptist Faith and Message although the question assumes a position that we do not hold.)

The demons things about Christ apart from the revelation of the scripture, but it is no profit to them. The demons do not know Christ (in the New Testament sense of having a living and loving faith relationship) as believers know Him.

While written revelation guides us to Christ and provides information about Christ and His teachings, the scripture does not provide the new birth nor the new life in Christ. We can only place our faith in Christ when we are divinely called (John 6:44). The scripture was not designed to replace a living relationship with Christ -- only to equip and enhance it.

 

I agree with Baptist Believer.

Here's an example: Yesterday I went to Quizno's, which is a sub sandwich restaurant. I saw a girl there who I had seen about two months ago. I was with one of my students - we had gone for supper. It was her first day at work then. As we blessed our meal, I understood that God specifically wanted me to ask her about her faith. So, I did. We had a great conversation about Jesus Christ and the nature of church. (On a side note, she commented that she thought the idea of Jesus was great, but that Christians often looked down upon her since she was a high-school drop-out and had previously lived with her boyfriend.) I gave her one of my cards and invited her to church. She said she would think about it.

I saw her again yesterday. I asked if she remembered who I was. She said that she did. She remembered our conversation and everything that had happened two months ago. God is continuing to work on her heart, and I have no doubt that He will continue to do so.

Now, did I find Quizno's in the Bible? How else did I know that this girl who I had never seen before needed to hear the gospel message?

It is very sad to think that there are Christians who do not believe that the Holy Spirit will guide them through life, specifically instructing them about specific situations. I am the happiest in life when I am communicating with God, and I follow His commands - both Scriptural and personal - in obedience.

 

Scott

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark Osgatharp

 

Do you believe that God can lead a person to specifically witness to a specific person?

 

BB, I have been around long enough to see and understand your spin on words.

Since you cannot know anything with accuracy about God and specifically Christ without the Scripture, you must have an inerrant Scripture. If it isn't, then your view is as skewed as the record.

Stop trying the worn out tactics. Of course Christ died and not the Bible. Of course we worship Christ and not the Bible. We just don't belittle it because it might affect and effect the way we do ministry.

By claiming that the record of Christ and his actions and words govern everything else, then you must have at least have inerrant gospel accounts.

 

Chapter and verse, I cannot give, but as sure as I live and breathe, I believe that God, the Holy Spirit, does lead us to specific people and to specific things.

I compare this to a man and woman, joined for many years in a love relationship. We begin to "know" what the other is thinking before anything is expressed. So it is with God. If we are in "tune" with Him, we can experience His directions.

Call it subjectivism, if you will, but I believe there is a place for subjectivism in the Christian religion, as well as the objective scriptures.

Cheers,

Jim

 

You apparently believe I’m trying to be deceptive or deliberately vague. I am not. I am trying to be as clear and specific as possible!

1.) I have made no claim that I know anything about Christ that is not revealed in scripture.
2.) I have made the claim that all Christians know Christ is a way that is distinct from the scripture.
3.) I certainly believe that the scripture is trustworthy.

I certainly don’t intend for anyone to “belittle” God’s written word. If you believe I do, you don’t understand what I am trying to communicate.

The gospel accounts are trustworthy. But that’s not really the issue here.

I’m afraid you’re assuming that I hold some theological positions that I do not hold.

 

Of course. My contention is that this way that a person claims to know Christ can never be sovereign over the Scripture.

 

Of course. My contention is that this way that a person claims to know Christ can never be sovereign over the Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]The Holy Bible has never saved anyone. A person is saved only through the conviction of the Holy Spirit. How does a person know when he or she is being convicted? Is there a chapter and verse for that time? Of course not. It is a personal experience, when a person is regenerated and becomes a new creature.

This experience is distinct from the Bible, although it is not "trumping" the Word of God. The Bible says that salvation will happen, but the way that the Spirit draws each man is different, because we are all unique.

 

No so Scott, the Scriptures records exactly what God does:

1) For it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save them that believe.

2) How will they believe without a PREACHER... so then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the (spoken) word of God.

Can you point out where I said the Bible saves anyone? The words must be accurated proclaimed in order for a person to become a believer.

 

Of course. My contention is that this way that a person claims to know Christ can never be sovereign over the Scripture. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree.

I have not advocated any other view.

Using Jesus as the criterion for interpreting scripture does not mean that scripture is invalid or that our understanding of Christ will negate scripture.

Furthermore, the leading of Christ in our daily discipleship will not contradict scripture.

Yet, at the same time, the Holy Spirit is not dependent upon written revelation to do the work of God in convicting and calling people to Christ.

In the same way that Abraham responded to God in the Old Testament and some of the hearers of Paul at Mars Hill (see Acts 17) responded to God from hearing Paul's sermon, the Spirit of God calls people to repentance and faith.

The message of the gospel (that is, the content -- not necessarily the written words themselves) is what is effective and used of God.

 

Brother Vaughn,

I totally agree with your statements about the leadership of the Spirit and were this all that the "Christ is the criterion" people were contending for, I would have no quarrel with them. But when they castigate "fundamentalists" for taking a too "literal" approach to the Scriptures and start talking about historical events in the Bible as if they were only myths or fables with a moral lesson, they belie their real philosophy.

Everyone who reads the Bible knows it contains allegorical a parabolic statements. For example, I don't know anyone who thinks that when Jesus said "the good seed is the word of God" that He meant God's word was a physical seed to be cast in the ground. Nor do I know anyone who thinks that when Paul said "This Hagar is mount Sinai" that he meant Hagar was a mountain in the wilderness.

Notwithstanding, when the Bible presents things as historical facts - Abraham, the Exodus, Jonah, etc. etc. - and men say these are or may be just parables or myths, they prove that they are infidels who simply don't believe what the Bible says. And a man who does not believe the truth of these things cannot possibly believe in Jesus Christ for Jesus Himself asked,

"If you believe not his [Moses] writings, how shall ye believe my words?"

I might add that the very reason men are prone to reject the historicity of some Biblical accounts is because they do not correspond to their corrupted conceptions of God. For example, the infamous Broadman commentary on Genesis which asserted that God never really commanded Abraham to kill Isaac came to that conclusion on the a priori assumption that God would never make such a commandment.

Likewise, many have asserted that the accounts of Jewish massacres against pagan peoples cannot possibly be accurate portrayals of God's will because, they assume, God would never command such things. And yet God did command such things and those who reject the account not only reject the Scriptures but God as He is.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Baptist Beliver,

You said
"A person is saved only through the conviction of the Holy Spirit."

Wrong.

A person is convicted by the Holy Spirit. The salvation comes upon the believing of the Word of God by the lost person. Belief and belief only is what saves a mans soul or better said is what makes him born again. The Holy Spirit doesn't save anyone.

Kent Witcher

 

Rlvauhgn,

You said

" I would tend to refer to the "what to do" as the leadership of the Holy Spirit."


I believe that this is absolutely true. It is best evidenced in Phillipians 2:13

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and TO DO of his good pleasure."

Not only does God enable us to DO his good pleasure but he also gives us the want to. This is a very good example of the fact that we can do nothing of ourselves. The part of God that works in us is his Holy Spirit with whom we are indwelt with upon being born again.


You also said:

" Here is an illustration I think most of "my people" will understand. Among the Baptists with whom I would be considered in fellowship, there is belief in a divine call to the ministry. That call is more than just reading in the Bible that all in general are supposed to "go." It might be called a feeling, an impression, or an experience by which a person believes he has a definite call from God to be a preacher/pastor."

Again I belive the appropriate word would be the same one Paul used when he wrote to Timothy.

He said If any desire the work of a bishop.

It is a desire to serve as a pastor. Desires of the father's good will again only come from God who works in us through his Holy Spirit.

Kent Witcher

 

Baptist Believer,

Here is my somewhat tardy reply.

You said

"Covet after? I’d say the greater gifts found in Romans 12 such as prophecy (speaking God’s truth clearly), ministry (literally, helping others), teaching, encouraging, giving, leading and compassion. God has given each of us one or more of these gifts and He wants us to use them in service of others. As far as the “sign” gifts in 1 Corinthians 12 go, God will occasionally use those gifts in us for special purposes, but they are not the everyday norm for most Christians in most circumstances."

The bible says:

"But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet I show unto you a more excellent way."

"Now abides faith hope charity these three but the greatest of these is charity."

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall Fail: whether there be tounges they shall CEASE: whether there be knowledge, it shall VANISH away."


Kent Witcher