Jesus didn't do a good job!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by richard n koustas, Jun 8, 2005.

  1. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    I was practicing my `confrontational style' of witnessing a few days
    ago with a couple of practicing catholics. We bounced from topic to
    topic. At one point I asked: why did Jesus die? (it is surprising how
    many different answers you can get with this one question) Their
    answers included: for the forgiveness of sins and they even mentioned
    the `a' word (atonement). No argument here...

    As the discussion progressed (about 4 `show me where it says that in
    the Bible's later), one of them, getting a little flustered with me,
    said: All I know is when I die, I'm going to purgatory ...and then she
    explained how she was going to earn her way out. To that I replied:
    "Then Jesus didn't do a good job!"

    If Jesus suffered and died on the cross to forgive us and pay the
    penalty for our sins (and you actually believe that), than what more
    can you do?
     
  2. mozier

    mozier
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    It would appear that this Catholic didn't have a very good understanding of what her church teaches about purgatory.

    According to Catholic teaching, the soul in purgatory is already saved and heaven-bound. But what is happening is that the soul is being cleansed in the blood of Jesus by means of "fire" (1 Cor 3:15) so that the person will enter heaven completely clean and purified of any sin on the soul. It isn't something that you have to "earn" in order to "get out."

    So the Catholics say.
     
  3. TexasSky

    TexasSky
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    Awesome response! Thank you for sharing that!

    One of the things I hit recently while witnessing to a nonbeliever was, "You Christians always make such a big deal out of Christ dieing for you, then say he knows everything and was raised from the dead. Well, he knew he wasn't going to stay dead, what difference did the cross make?"

    My answer was: That is actually the beauty of what he did. He left heaven, the place of perfect peace, perfect love, perfect power, to live a little over 30 years on the earth as the son of a Carpenter in a poor region of the earth - KNOWING how hard life on the poor can be. He ministered and loved and healed - KNOWING that the very act of doing those things would make people like you hate him. He KNEW he would be tortured for sins that WE should be punished for, and that He never committed. He went to the cross knowing that some people would never listen, never appreciate never care, but He did it ANYWAY because HE loved us. You say it doesn't count because He didn't stay in the grave. The fact is, it ONLY counts because he didn't.
     
  4. richard n koustas

    richard n koustas
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    mozier: maybe i didn't have a good understanding of what she was saying (and i certainly do not have a good understanding what catholics are taught)...it sounded like she had to do things to work her way out of purgatory.

    sky: you are right, the cross makes all the difference.

    "...and without shedding of blood is no remission." Heb. 9:22
     
  5. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
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    The works that official Catholic doctrine is talking about in purgatory hold the same status as works Baptist talk about when we reference the works of progressive sanctification and refining discipline after initial justification. Of course, this distinction is rarely made to the lay Catholic.

    Catholic Outlook : Common Objections
    Catechism of the Catholic Church : Purgatory
     
  6. shannonL

    shannonL
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    and of course our sactification is in progress while we are alive and will be made complete when we see Jesus (immediatly) after we die.
    No sanctifing going on in a nonexistant purgatory
    They may hold some status with the catholic church but that is it. Why try to even make some kind of comparison. One is a true biblical statement the other is absolute falsehood.
     
  7. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
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    Agreed.

    I believe it is important to make truthful and correct statements about those who we think are wrong.
     
  8. Soulman

    Soulman
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    Posted by Gold Dragon: The works that official Catholic doctrine is talking about in purgatory hold the same status as works Baptist talk about when we reference the works of progressive sanctification and refining discipline after initial justification.

    You always seem to be slamming the baptists. I know we aren't perfect by far but I think they are the closest to getting it right. That is why I am a baptist. Why are you a baptist if you hold them in such disdain?
     
  9. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon
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    It is interesting that you accuse me of slamming baptists in this thread. I have done so before in other threads, but this one, I honestly had nothing negative to say about Baptists. The works of progressive sanctification that both Baptists and Catholics refer to is biblical truth.

    Regarding your question of why I, a baptist, am critical of baptists and remain a baptist, that is a great question with a pretty complicated answer.

    Why am I critical of baptists? I grew up in a Baptist family, attending baptist churches my entire life, marrying a baptist and having most of my friends as baptists. I love baptists.

    My criticism of baptists stems from my love for this community that has nurtured and corrected me over the years.

    The motto of this site is "The Truth Shall Set You Free". Would it be love to know truth and let others remain in error? I know you feel it is you who has the truth and I that is in error. I couldn't care less who is right, as long as the truth is made known.

    You feel that Baptists are the closests at getting it right. That is great. My hope does not lie in the "rightness" or closeness to perfection of my local church or its theologies. They are just as imperfect as every other church and theology out there.

    My hope lies in the perfect Christ that my imperfect local church seeks to worship and know. It lies in the perfect Christ that our imperfect theologies seek to understand.

    Of course I feel my imperfect theologies are more perfect than your imperfect theologies or else I wouldn't believe them. Hopefully through our dialogue and honest searching for the truth with Baptists and non-Baptists alike, both our imperfect theologies will become more perfect, even though seeking perfect theologies is not the aim of Christianity. It is to seek and know the perfect Christ.
     

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