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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Zaac, Mar 18, 2014.
Let us too be the friend of sinners!!!
One of my favorite songs by Casting Crowns. Though precise interpretation is somewhat subject to individual biases and opinions. I don't know that I'd use it in relation to politics. But that's just me.
Another song by Casting Crowns that I love (unrelated to this discussion) is The Altar and the Door. A song I relate to more than I'd like to be able to say.
I agree to be like Jesus in our relationship with sinners. And I understand your point of view. I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you - just flipping the coin over to look at the other side.
But Jesus had more than just love and mercy in His heart - He also had condemnation for sin, especially the sins of the religious elite - but condemnation for all sin.
Love and judgment are not mutually exclusive.
Love is not rainbow and candy land. Love is sometimes jumping into the fire to rescue people from their sin.
Look at these two SERIOUS things God has to about that.
Ezekiel 3:18-19 - "When I [God] say to a wicked man, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself."
Proverbs 24:24-25 - "Whoever says to the guilty, 'you are innocent'—peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come upon them."
God isn't playing with people's lives.
If we TRULY love one another - we will not allow fear to keep us from reaching people who have turned away from the truths of God's Word.
Yes, let's love them and treat them the way that Jesus did.
But we can't high-five them all the way to hell.
I agree with everything that you said in this post. Ezekiel 3:18-19 is a verse that I have often brought up to people who say you shouldn't point out that a person is a sinner.
The context of that Scripture is to point out that the person is a sinner. That he has evil ways because we are to point people to repentance of ALL of their sins and not just be crazy about one.
And I'm glad you said this because there seems to be a misguided notion that Jesus came to condemn people.
Very good point, there comes a time in our "friedly approach" to sinners that we need to do as Jesus Himself told us to do, and that is ... "If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace. Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city." Matthew 10:13-15 (ESV)
When you say "Friend" does that include ...
FELLOWSHIP? Are you clumping friendship into the same camp as fellowship, because if you are, you have a big problem. The Scriptures seem to say different. Here are but a few, and others on the board may have some additional ones to throw your way!
2 Cor 6:14,17 (NIV), "Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?... "Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord."
1 Cor 5:9-11 (NIV), "I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people--not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or to the greedy or swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat."
* NOTE to Zaac - This would take some ait out of your argument that a saved, born-again indiviual can continue to refer to themself as a born-again homosexual, would it?
1 Jn 1:5-7 "Here, then, is the message which we heard from him, and now proclaim to you: GOD IS LIGHT and no shadow of darkness can exist in him. Consequently, if we were to say that we enjoyed fellowship with him and still went on living in darkness, we should be both telling and living a lie. But, if we really are living in the same light in which he eternally exists, then we have true fellowship with each other, and the blood which his son Jesus shed for us keeps us clean from all sin."
2 Tim 3:1-5 , "But you must realize that in the last days the times will be full of danger. Men will become utterly self-centered, greedy for money, full of big words. They will be proud and abusive, without any regard for what their parents taught them. They will be utterly lacking in gratitude, reverence and normal human affections. They will be remorseless, scandal-mongers, uncontrolled and violent haters of all that is good. They will be treacherous, reckless and arrogant, loving what gives them pleasure instead of loving God. They will maintain a facade of "religion", but their life denies it's truth. Keep clear of people like that."
Mat 18:20, "For wherever two or three people have come together in my name, I am there, right among them!"
NOTE to Zaac ... true fellowship is the coming TOGETHER of believers who can all, without doubt or deniability, claim to be in Jesus. When that is the case, Jesus says He will be there in their midst. Coud this be a reason that some churches, who pray together, and claim that they meet the criteria of two or more gathered in HIs name, fail to achieve answers to prayers, because someone in their midst, is not truly a born-again believer? Maybe before we pray as a group, we need to caution those gathering with us, to search and conduct a self-examination, to make sure they truly qualify as His. Something like we do when we prepare to hand out the elements of the Lords supper, or communion!
The following point was borrowed from a link on fellowship (http://www.acts17-11.com/fellowship.html): "The worst thing we could do is to try to imitate the external behavior of the New Testament church without going through the internal changes, led by the Spirit. True fellowship requires at least: repentance, light, judgment (discernment), protection, good stewardship, the grace gifts and fruit of the Holy Spirit ... All this is possible, but only "in Christ."
With that said .... please tell me just which of these are you wanting and exhorting the church to do when it comes to sinners:
Be a friend, and se that friendship to break the breac of truth about salvation ... OR ... are we to fellowship with sinners? I clearly see a difference, but was wondering if you see what I see, or are you couded, or going to accuse me of being clouded.
Waiting to hear back from you!
NOPE. The sole purpose of a relationship with the unsaved is to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There can be no SPIRITUAL fellowship between the saved and the unsaved.
I am not going point by point, have no interest in it, but I love when you guys bring this scripture out. Have you ever read it? Or do you just go the fundies say this... book of scripture that is twisted and multilated?
Read it... really read it. Pay close attention to verse 10.
This is Paul telling people not to associate with "brothers" who are sexually immoral, greedy, etc... You even underlined it. Nowhere does it say to separate from the immoral of the world. It even says "not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or to the greedy or swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world."
Just for giggles, lets include 12 and 13 here as well.
"12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church[b] whom you are to judge? 13 God judges[c] those outside. “Purge the evil person from among you.”
Been said before. Needs to be said again. Often.
Before we can have this discussion, we need to define "judging."
Where I live a church recently went through a "time of discernment" to determine if they would do "same gender blessing ceremonies." They decided not to do them.
But here is the kicker. I have friends who did attend there. During the supposed "discernment" anyone who pointed out that these ceremonies imply a continuing sexual relationship will take place, and that scripture forbids that as sin, were labeled unloving and judgmental.
So to Zaac--when, as happened to this church, the issue is brought to the church by outsiders and the church says "No, that is sin," do you consider all those in that church "unloving" and "judgmental" and focused on only that one sin?
The church is commanded to judge those WITHIN the church. In preaching God's word, a pastor should have no qualms with telling his congregation that God has defined what marriage is and we will not be doing anything that puts us, within the church, in direct contradiction to what God says.
So in telling them what Scripture says marriage is, i would lovingly show them why as a follower of Jesus Christ I could not perform or allow such a service to take place within the church.
As people outside the church, they have the right to do whatever they want. But as someone who follows Christ , we inside the church must do as we are commanded.
The loving part will be judged in how you address them. The spiritual person judges all things. 1 Cor. 2:15 And in that regard, I have a Biblical mandate to tell them what WE will not do IN the church. Not THEM, but US.
....I thought this is how you believed, but wanted to hear it from you!
I surely don't disagree with you!
Just for a few extra chuckles, let me thank you for clearing that up! That was one excellent point! :wavey:
zaac--thanks for clearing up your position.
Do you believe we as believers also have a mandate to lovingly speak what we will not do outside the church? I don't mean the speaking being outside the church, but the action.
You CANNOT separate jesus/God in JUST holy Love for sinners, as He is HOLY period, i and His wrath also burns against those whose lifestyles and walks of life have them rejecting God Son jesus, whose ridicule and mocking of Him are trampling underfoot the precious bllod that was shed!
Need to preach/teach BOTH truths, as God lovbe sinners enough to send his Son jesus to die for them, but also that His wrath and anger will burn towards and on those whose lifestyles and choices mock jesus!
??? Who said to separate Jesus in just holy love for sinners? Focus.:laugh:
As we are in the world, we have a mandate to lovingly present the truth period. Unfortunately a lot of us don't understand what God means when He tells us to not argue about words. 2 Tim. 2:14
This is how we end up arguing back and forth with the lost over issues instead of lovingly presenting the truth and attempting to share the Gospel and calling it a day.
Can you give an example of lovingly speaking about what we will not do outside the church? Are you referencing the building or the Body of Believers?
I'm asking that if the pastor of a church can lovingly explain why he won't do a same sex wedding why can't a Christian, outside the church building in a business he owns, lovingly explain why he won't do the cake for one.
Just stating must have a proper balance on this issue, as those in sinful practices and ways need to hear and the love of Christ in us, be told the Gospel message, but also warned of the judgement that will come unto those whose bent is to deny Jesus and God, in order to "do their own thing!"
Because that is discrimination, as I argued a few weeks ago in the thread regarding the Arizona and Kansas that would make it impossible to sue a Christian (or, ostensibly, a person of any other faith) for declining to do business with someone who lived a lifestyle or held a viewpoint that the person of faith didn't want to "endorse."
First of all, doing business with someone isn't endorsing anything else in their life or about them, other than their money. And these laws were written specifically to address two lawsuits filed by gay couples who were unhappy that a Christian baker and a Christian photographer -- separate cities, hundreds of miles apart, neither in Arizona or in Kansas -- declined their business on their "wedding day." It is ludicrous to claim such an exchange of services for payment "endorses" anything, though if a Christian or Muslim wants to decline that business in the U.S., they already have the "right to refuse service" statutes made possible by the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The caveat? The reason for refusing service cannot be that the rejected customer is black, Native American, foreign, female, male or, presumably, "gay" though that last issue hasn't yet been addressed in the courts.
Nonetheless, every single American -- not just minorities -- come under the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment. No less than SCOTUS Justice Antonin Scalia has said so. Section I of the amendment says: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." Note the wording. The Kansas and Arizona laws would be declared in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
"Liberty" includes the right to do business, both as buyer or seller. Opening a store, shop or service agency on Main Street or any other street is an implied contract to do business with anyone offering to buy your products and/or services, and the Fourteenth Amendment prevents a storekeeper, shop owner or service provider from denying anyone the ability to do business based on their race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation -- though that has not yet been officially decided. No doubt it will be, however, because it flows in the same creek, so to speak. You could refuse to serve anyone having blue eyes you will no serve them because of that feature, and you would be violating their Fourteenth Amendment rights.
By the same token, telling someone you will not serve them because they are black, Native American, foreign, female, male or "gay" is a deprivation of their liberty. The business owner can say, "I'm sorry, I cannot serve you" and, providing he/she offers no reasoning for the decision, be protected. The moment the owner gives a reason -- i.e., "You're gay," "You're black," "You're Catholic," "You're redheaded," "You've got blue eyes," -- you violate their rights under the Fourteenth Amendment. Also, a state is strictly forbidden from making a law that would allow that sort of violation of the Fourteenth Amendment.
You're free to tell a gay person you do not approve of their lifestyle, you will pray for them -- you're even free, as Westboro Baptist has proven for years, to tell them you "hate" them, or that God "hates" them. But if you do so as a business owner refusing to do business on the basis of their "sexual orientation," you have violated their rights. Not to mention, p.o.'d them royally, and why would a Christian want to go out of his/her way to make someone angry? Kinda defeats the purpose of telling them about your disapproval, doesn't it? Oh, you did intend to follow up that disapproval with a clear, loving, forthright presentation of the gospel, right?