Jesus on the cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, Mar 17, 2011.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
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    I have read a lot of "determinism/fatalism" on here for quite a while now. I am now going to pose a question for all to respond to. This question will make the "rubber meet the road", "draw a line in the sand", and about any other corny cliche' you can think of.

    Who slaughtered Jesus and nailed Him to the cross??

    I want to find out how "fatal" the fatalism on here is, and how "deterministic" the determinism is.
     
  2. historyb

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    each of us. Immediately the Jewish leaders
     
  3. percho

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    whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

    And he said, Take now thy son, thine only [son] Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there

    And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb, for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

    Is Abraham a type of God the Father? I put the comma after lamb just thought it should be there.
     
  4. convicted1

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    BINGO!!! :thumbs:
     
  5. convicted1

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    BINGO!!!! Pretty much what the other person posted!! Bravo!!! :thumbs:


    I have thought that Abraham was a "type" of God, Isaac a "type" of Jesus, and Jacob a "type" of the holy Ghost. I think that your thought here is pretty much a "main line" chain of thought amongst most, if not all, CHRISTians!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  6. Ron Wood

    Ron Wood
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    What do the Scripures say?


    (Isa 53:10) Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    (Isa 53:11) He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    (Isa 53:12) Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


    Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
     
  7. convicted1

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    So, IOW, you are saying that God killed His Son? You have posted scripture to support your belief, but you didn't come "out" and say it?

    Well, let's look at what the scriptures say to supports me......:smilewinkgrin:

    Now, I am going to use one of the verses you posted against you:

    This verse right here states that the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God(God knew this was going to happen) and by wicked hands(are God's hands wicked?) they have crucified and slain.

    Now here is some more support that God did not do it:

    Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. I did not read God's name in this verse, but "ye" I did read....so I assume that Apostle Peter was correct on whom he placed the blame.....I reckon


    John 18:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Cedron, where was a garden, into the which he entered, and his disciples.

    2 And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.

    3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons.

    4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

    5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

    6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. This right here is God's power working. When they fell to the ground, I believe with everything in me, this was God's way of saying, "you can not lay one finger on My Son, unless I allow it to occur!!"

    7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

    9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.


    Psa. 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

    14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

    15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

    16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

    It sure looks like to me that wicked men(not God) "throttled" Jesus, and nail Him to the cross. Granted, He allowed all this to happen. Nothing can be without Him first allowing it to occur. He allowed His Son to place all sins upon Him, and to nail them with Him, to the cross. God allowed it, but did not do it Himself.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  8. convicted1

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    Now, I want to break down Acts 2:23:

    Greek word for "delivered": ekdotos G1560

    Thayer's
    1) given over, delivered up

    a) to enemies, or to the power, the will, of some one


    "determinate": horizō G3724

    Thayer's
    1) to define

    a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)

    b) to determine, appoint

    1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree

    2) to ordain, determine, appoint


    Greek word for "foreknowledge": prognōsis G4268

    Thayer's
    1) foreknowledge

    2) forethought, pre-arrangement


    "taken": lambanō G2983

    Thayer's
    1) to take

    a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it

    1) to take up a thing to be carried

    2) to take upon one's self

    b) to take in order to carry away

    1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away

    c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own

    1) to claim, procure, for one's self

    a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant


    So when this gets broken down to its simplest meaning, it PLAINLY states that "wicked men", and not God, crucified Jesus. Now, God did allow this to happen, just like He allows for rapes, murders, robberies, child molesting, lying, stealing, cheating, beating, back biting, etc to take place. But He is not involved in any of those sins, whatsoever.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
  9. Rippon

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    Scripture Cited Is From The NIV 1984

    A sister passage is Acts 4:27,28:

    Indeed Herod and Pontius met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus,whom you anointed.They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

    So it is clear that what Pilate,Herod,and the people conspired to do in killing Christ was according to what God's counsel had determined beforehand had to happen. It was the very will of the Father being carried out. God certainly willed this to happen,not merely allowed it come about. He arranged it. It was the union of the desire of wicked men and the will of God --the Holy Father.
     
  10. convicted1

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    So, that which I bolded makes you a "synergist" then.....well, you getting closer!! :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::smilewinkgrin:
     
  11. convicted1

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    Well, now.....lets back up a few verses and see what Peter had to say about this:

    Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

    8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

    9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

    10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

    Now, I agree wholeheartedly, that Jesus was predestined to be the Saviour of the world, but God allowed those men to do it. How else could Jesus appease God's wrath concerning sin, exept die for all sins.

    Matt. 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    2 Cor. 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


    God had to forsake His Son, because all sins of all mankind had been placed upon Him when He died on the cross. At anytime, He could haved called and twelve legion of angels would have been there to rescue Him.

    Matt. 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?



    So at any time, all He had to do was say the word, and God could have rescued Him. Why didn't He. God predestined Him to be the Saviour of the world. But this was done by the hands of sinful men, and this accomplished what God had predestined Jesus to do......die for a wretch like me!! Praise His sweet name!!

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #11 convicted1, Mar 17, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2011
  12. Amy.G

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    John 10:18 No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    God Himself came in human flesh. It was His decision, His choice. No man took His life.
     
  13. percho

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    God provided himself via the Word made flesh, the Son as the Lamb slain. Also he was considered slain before Adam was created which I find very interesting being most think Adam fell from something.
     
  14. Rippon

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    Well,it certainly isn't soterological synergism. It has nothing to with real soterological synergism than "freewill offerings" have anything to do with the Arminian idea of free-will pervasive in Evangelicalism/Fundamentalism these days.
     
  15. convicted1

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    I know that you are not a "synergist", I was just poking at you a little there, Brother. No offense taken??
     
  16. convicted1

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    I agree with this statement, Sister Amy. But in order for Him to lay it down, He did have to die. My point is this, when Jesus laid down His life, God allowed His Son to do this!! Men did their part in slaying His fleshly body, but the only thing that God did, was allow it to happen, to fulfill the scriptures of Him being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!
     
  17. Greektim

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    So convicted1 has Thayer, does some word studies, and has presented "clearly" what is so obvious??? Wow...

    2 passages (when only one could do)

    1 Pet 1:20; 2:4, 6 speaks of Christ being chosen (and yes that is what foreknowledge implies there in Peter)

    Eph 1:11 - In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

    Wouldn't Christ's death be included in "all things" which God "works... according to the counsel of his will"??? Yes God determined the death of Jesus.
     
  18. convicted1

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    Bro. Tim,

    I am not pretending to be some great Greek and Hebrew scholar, and most,if not all, of my posts will attest to that. However, in what little bit of "wading" I have done, I do believe they prove my stance.

    I believe wholeheartedly that Jesus was presdestined to be the sacrificial Lamb and the bible proves that. That's not my point of contention at all. It's the way that certain attributes are given to God that go completely against His nature according to His word. He said "Thou shalt not kill"(I guess murder will be more sufficient??), and then turn around and slaughter His Son? He allowed this to take place, and in Him turning away from Jesus, clearly caused it to happen.

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Now, here is a little passage to show you that God was in complete control the whole time:

    John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?

    5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.

    6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

    7 Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth.

    8 Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:

    9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

    Now, what do you reckon caused them to go backward and fall to the ground? I did not read where anyone had pushed them. God caused them to fall backward, showing that if He did not want to have this to take place, they could not lay one finger on Him. By Jesus taking our sins to the cross, made Him "sin"(or better, a symbol of sin) before God, and God had to withdraw from His Son at this time because He who knew no sin, became sin for us. God allowed these wicked men to crucify His Son to fulfill the scriptures, plus to make a way for us gentiles to be grafted in to the natural olive branch, being a wild olive branch ourself.

    Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread!! :thumbs:

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #18 convicted1, Mar 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2011
  19. Osage Bluestem

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    On Mt. Moriah we see that Abraham inspired by the Holy Spirit prophesied that the Lord would provide the lamb:

    Genesis 22:7-8 ESV
    7And Isaac said to his father Abraham, "My father!" And he said, "Here am I, my son." He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?" 8Abraham said, "God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son." So they went both of them together.

    Isaiah prophesied about the Lamb and said it is was God's will to crush him.

    Isaiah 53:5,7,10-12 ESV
    5 But he was wounded for our transgressions;
    he was crushed for our iniquities;
    upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
    and with his stripes we are healed.
    7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
    yet he opened not his mouth;
    like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
    and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
    so he opened not his mouth.
    10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
    he has put him to grief
    ;
    when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
    he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
    the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    11Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
    make many to be accounted righteous,
    and he shall bear their iniquities.
    12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
    and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
    because he poured out his soul to death
    and was numbered with the transgressors;
    yet he bore the sin of many,
    and makes intercession for the transgressors.

    We see that the plan was carried out by wicked men:

    Acts 4:27-28 ESV
    27for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

    The clear summary of what happened is given in John:

    John 3:16 ESV
    16"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

    We see that the Lamb is exalted in heaven with the Father. Their plan is finished and filled with glory and holiness.

    Revelation 5:11-14 ESV
    11Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, 12saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" 13And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" 14And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
     
    #19 Osage Bluestem, Mar 18, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2011
  20. convicted1

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    Bro. OB,

    First off, thanks for taking the time to post in this thread....I really appreciate it!! :thumbs:

    I think that we are in agreement(I mean all that have posted in this thread) with a lot of what has been posted. But when they state God does "all things", then "all things" would include Him slaughtering His Son Himself, and not "wicked men". Did God kill Jesus or did God allow these wicked men to do it?? I know that they did not take His life, because He freely gave it. But for Him to freely give His life for us, He did have to die. So, the question I want to ask all of y'all who will post in this thread is this:

    Did God kill Jesus, or did God allow these wicked men to do it??

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     

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