Jesus on the Rapture of the Chruch

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, May 7, 2015.

  1. revmwc

    revmwc
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    Matthew 25:1-13
    1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

    Five the number of grace these accepted or believed whatever term you want to use these a the believers in Christ the saved.

    3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

    The foolish church members who have not the Holy Spirit, oil almost always represents the Holy Spirit.

    4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

    6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

    The cry and the trump as seen in 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

    Believers ready to go.

    8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

    They want the Holy Spirit but can't revcieve Him as the Bridegroom has come.

    9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

    10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

    11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

    12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    They were left because He never knew them.

    13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    We don't know when He is coming but He is coming and He made it clear He is coming for the Bride.
     
  2. beameup

    beameup
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    This chapter and the one before it address the Tribulation. During the Tribulation, the permanent "sealing" of the Holy Spirit will not apply, as is the case during this present "dispensation". In other words, you can "lose your salvation" during the Tribulation.
     
  3. revmwc

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    not one person who has ever placed their faith in Christ has lost their salvation.

    Not solomon as some say, not Lot as others say. Scripture is clear, once Christ and the Father hold you in their hand no one will pluck you out and God will not release you. Lot was saved out Sodom as judgment was fast approaching. Abraham faltered and failed. So not one person who is saved in the Tribulation will lose their salvation. Once saved always saved!
     
  4. HankD

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    And it would seem that many will be saved out of the "great tribulation".

    Revelation 7
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
    10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
    11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
    12 saying: "Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom, Thanksgiving and honor and power and might, Be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?"
    14 And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    HankD
     
    #4 HankD, May 7, 2015
    Last edited: May 7, 2015
  5. revmwc

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    I believe many will be saved during the Tribulation. A few teachers in the past say no one can be saved if they rejected the gospel on this side of the Trib. I don't support that view.
     
  6. beameup

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    Still doesn't address the fact that Matthew 24 & 25 have absolutely nothing to do with the "church", the Body of Christ. Lot knew nothing about "putting his faith in Christ". Under the old covenant, there was no permanent "sealing" of the Holy Spirit. Sealing of the H.S. is what separates the Body of Christ from all other salvation of individuals in other "dispensations". The Tribulation is a separate and special dispensation with "special" rules. Martyrdom will be the only "option", in most cases, to be "saved". Taking the "mark" will condemn one to hell. The majority of humans during the Tribulation will worship the False-Christ as God.
     
  7. PreachTony

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    What translation are you using? I've always read that particular passage of Revelation 7 as pertaining to all the hardships and trials that all believers will have to face. Not as pertaining to some literal event known as the great tribulation. Then again, I'm an amillennialists who reads Revelation with an eclectic eye instead of searching for literal interpretations. The genre just does not lend itself to a literal interpretation.
     
  8. revmwc

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    Many will be saved in the tribulation and will survive. Some pre-trib dispenastionalist believe that if someone rejects Christ on this side then 2 Thessalonians 1:10 apply to them for the entire Tribulation period.

    10 "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

    When these reject the truth,

    2 Thesaalonians 1:7-9, 7 "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
    9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,"

    First we see yet another verse to support the pre-trib rapture in verse 7, "...He who now letteth will let, until He be taken out of the way." Who is it that let's right now the Holy Spirit, when is He removed? When the church is removed, for He indwells all believers of this the church period. If He is removed that would mean He would no longer indwell believers, so we would lose both the indwelling and filling of the spirit unless He came upon us individually as He will in the Tribulation. Then the wicked one will be revealed and eventually come into power and be destroyed as we see in Revelation 19.

    Those who reject the truth after the coming of this one will be those who reject Christ in the Tribulation and they will follow the lie. this clearly shows the beast as he is called by John in Revelation as being the one "whose coming is after the working of satan" the Beast out of the Sea of nations and the deceit will be perpetrated by the beast out of Israel the anti-christ a.k.a the false Prophet or false chirst.
     
  9. HankD

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    This passage is from the New KJV and I checked the Greek, the definite article is there (the great tribulation) in the original language although the 1611 KJV does not indicate it but simply says "great tribulation".

    If you are amillennialist then your view is still a valid one because indeed true Christians have always faced persecution, trials and hardships because of their faith in Jesus Christ and the word of God.

    Yes, Revelation is a difficult book. Personally I don't use it or eschatology as a final measure of orthodoxy. I would prefer a progressive dispensational view of eschatology for my fellowship church but if all other things being kosher (Trinity, Deity of Christ, Virgin birth, Vicarious Atonement, etc...) then I'm OK.

    The book of Revelation is viewed as a chiasm by some, a repetition of world history (in a futuristic sense) retold in different ways. Adventists like this view. It would also fit (sort of) an amillennialst view.

    To be forthright it has its problems under a dispensational pre-trib, pre-mil view (as well as every other view).

    Check "revelation" and "chiasm" or revelation and "chiastic" on Google.

    HankD
     
  10. blessedwife318

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    Well if you are going to use Matt 24 and 25 to prove your point I want to see how you deal with this passage.
    Matt 24:29-31

    29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Also I find it amusing that when people describe the rapture they will talk about the passage Matt 24:40-41
    "40 Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left."
    as an illustration. But then if you point out that this takes place after the Tribulation being described in Matt 24 they will say that this passage is not the rapture but the second coming and is showing the judgment of unbelievers.

    Matt 24 and 25 do not support a Pre-trib view of the rapture. That view has to be read into that passage.
     
  11. blessedwife318

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    Amazing that anyone will get saved during the Tribulation if the Holy Spirit is not around. I know this is one of Pre-Tribbers favorite proof text but I always have thought that they are really messing up Soteriology and Pneumatology by claiming that the Holy Spirit must be removed. A reading of Revelation shows that there are people saved during the Tribulation, so how are they saved. Also beamup said that there would be no Sealing of believers in the Tribulation but Revelation shows that is not true as well.

    Rev 7:2-4 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea, 3saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:

    So we have 144,000 Jews sealed. I would say that the Holy Spirit is still active in the Tribulation.
     
  12. OldRegular

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    Hank,

    The Church has always undergone tribulation. This passage is simply speaking of the deceased Saints of all ages! They are those of whom the Lord Jesus Christ said:

    John 15:18-21, KJV
    18. If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before [it hated] you.
    19. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
    20. Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
    21. But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
     
  13. revmwc

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    This is not a pre-trib verse sorry if you believe it to be. Verse 40 is a second coming verse.

    Those taken at this point in Matthew are the unbelievers they are taken and we see here in Revelation 19 they are slain by the Sword that proceeds out of Christ mouth.
    Their bodies now physically dead.
    Their souls go to hell
    Reserved until the end of the Millennial Reign.
    We see here in verse We see verse 21 of Revelation, “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

    The other, the ones left go into the Kingdom, that is the 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth.

    I'll answer the other passage next.
     
  14. revmwc

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    The people of the Old Testament were saved without the Holy Spirit indwelling them, the Tribulation will be no different. Not sealed with the Holy spirit they weren't sealed in the O.T. but yet god sealed them by their faith just as He seals us because of our faith. As we see with Samson the Spirit that is the Holy Spirit would come upon him as He willed. No different in the Tribulation.

    As the beast has a sign in the forehead look what Chapter 14 verse 1 says about the 144,000, "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." they have a different sign in their forehead the Father's Name is written there, and they were thus sealed.
     
  15. blessedwife318

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    You just proved my point about Matt 24:40. Thank you for that. I know that in Dispensational terms this has to do with the judgment not the rapture but that has never stopped pre-tribbers from alluding to it when they talk about the rapture. I have seen it played both ways depending on the point people were making.
     
  16. revmwc

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    Now we deal with this, We see fulfillment in Revelation 16 of part of this, verses 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
    11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds."


    The beast kingdom of course is the whole world. So a sign of the coming of the Son of Man, the earth falls dark, more of the plagues like those on Egypt, in verse 21 "And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."

    We see Revelation 19 which fulfills this passage too,

    11 "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God."

    Here again we see darkness as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords moves forward, 17 "And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;" if he is standing in the sun does that mean it is darkened? Possibly. Then we see this, Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years". Those gathered from the four corners of the earth reign in His Kingdom which is covering the whole earth. He sits upon the Throne of His father David in Jerusalem and rules the entire world.
     
  17. blessedwife318

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    So are you supporting a post trib view now ;)
    I mean you did a fantastic job of lining up Matthew 24 with Revelation. And the gathering of the elect at the end of the tribulation. :)
     
  18. revmwc

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    I have seen it played both ways just like the cup in the Garden that Jesus asked the father to pass from Him is played different ways. Most say He was asking not to go to the cross but that view to me doesn't fit what was happening there.

    To play it as the Rapture to me just doesn't fit. Revelation 19:21 fulfills it and that can be the only way it happens. Scripture or Prophecy will be seen fulfilled literally as God promised. You shouldn't be able to miss the prophecy of Revelation 19:21 fulfilling the Matthew passage, but sadly many do.
     
  19. revmwc

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    The gathering of the elect at the end of the Tribulation is t he Saints of the Tribulation not the church age saints. I believe they are caught up in Chapter 4 of Revelation and represented as being there by the 24 elders. Because we see in revelation 19,

    7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

    Where is the bride at this point, in heaven that's where. How do we know, 14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.'

    how is this army dressed, "in fine linen, white and clean," how was the bride granted to be arrayed, "in fine linen, clean and white." You see the bride has been in Heaven for 7 years, or as we can see that 70th week of Daniel.

    Here is the process of a marriage in Jesus time. I'll skip the bethrol portion, the wedding was a special ceremony that is what we see in Revelation 19.
    The wedding started with the procession of the groom and his companion’s to the bride’s home that occurred in chapter 4. The company would then escort the Bride and her companions back to the groom’s home. Where there would be a special meal prepared. A celebration ensued until a written marriage contract was issued. The couple would then be escorted to a special “bridal chamber.” Where they consummated the marriage. Here is the key to what we have in Revelation 19, the Marriage festivities continued for up to a week.

    Thus the 7 year Tribulation fits perfectly with the final week of Daniel's 70th week and the Bride during that week was preparing herself for the marriage to be completed.
     
  20. blessedwife318

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    Here is why I have always had a problem with the pre-trib view even though that's what I was raised with and even went to a Bible college that viewed it as the ONLY acceptable view is that there is no consistent way to interpret passages of Scripture. We start with the idea of the rapture being the gathering of the church or the elect. But then if one shows verses that talk about the gathering of the elect the interpretation is changed to being the second coming. It is clear from having studied dispensational teaching that they have the frame work of the last days set up in advance of looking at Scripture that they just plug into the frame work. Rapture comes before the tribulation so any verse that talks about gathering after the tribulation starts can't be the rapture it has to be something else.
     

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