Jesus Prayer in the Garden

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Mar 27, 2012.

  1. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    The standard teaching and I haven't figured out why is that When Jesus prayed that night in the Garden, in Mat. 26:
    38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?


    Mark 14:
    34And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.

    35And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

    36And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

    Luke 22:

    41And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

    42Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

    43And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
    44And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground

    Each of these is taught that Jesus was asking not to go to the cross, I have heard this teaching for many years. Yet scripture if you look to it doesn't bare this teaching out.

    First look at the Mat. 26:38 and Mark 14:34 both say Christ was sorrowful to death. He was in great agony and stress close to death. Matthew 26:39 and Mark 14:35 say He fell on the ground while Luke says He knelt, again a sign of the stress and anguish He was suffering. Luke 22:44 says He was sweating drops of blood this is a condition that is called from stress on the capilaries in the forhead.
    So again why would anyone see this as His asking not to go to the cross being the cup? The cup represents death that is for sure but these passage seems to indicate a death in the garden from the strss and pressures on His body. Then we have a passage that says His prayer was heard that night,

    Hebrews 5:7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    Notice what it says Jesus in the days of His flessh, "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death" and we are told "and was heard in that he feared" His prayer was Heard. the greek Eisakouo is used here for heard, this word means:

    1.to give heed to, comply with admonition, to obey
    2.to listen to, assent to, a request, to be heard, have request granted
    a.of persons offering prayers to God
    b.of prayers offered up

    God complied with His prayer, the only time we see scripture say Jesus prayed this way was that night in the Garden and His prayer was answered, death in the Garden was taken from Him and in Luke 22:43 we are an Angel came from heaven and strengthened Him. There is Father having heard and complied with Christ prayer of don't let me die here in the Garden and God sent an Angel to strengthen Him, His disciple were sleeping when He needed them most, but His Father heard and answered His prayer. Thank God He hears us and answers or prayers 24-7 just as He did His sons that night.

    What say you guys?
     
  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. Jn 12:27

    I generally agree with you. Here's my thoughts on it that I have posted before:

    The cup was death and His prayer was answered.

    And he went forward a little, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me: nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. Mt 26:39

    who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 1 Pet 2:23

    Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and having been heard for his godly fear, Heb 5:7

    I believe the statement, 'nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt', was Christ 'committing himself to him the judgeth righteously'.

    I believe that His request, 'if it be possible, let this cup pass away from me', was a supplication to 'him that was able to save him from death'.

    I believe the fact that God raised Him from the dead shows both that His supplication was heard, and that God declared Christ to be righteous, after the Jews had unrighteously judged Him to be worthy of death

    I believe the following passages from the Psalms to be Messianic and related to what is recorded in Mt 26:39 & Heb 5:7:

    He asked life of thee, thou gavest it him, Even length of days for ever and ever. Ps 21:4

    For thou wilt not leave my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt thou suffer thy holy one to see corruption. Ps 16:10

    8 I cried to thee, O Jehovah; And unto Jehovah I made supplication:
    9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?
    10 Hear, O Jehovah, and have mercy upon me: Jehovah, be thou my helper. Ps 30

    4 The cords of death compassed me, And the floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    5 The cords of Sheol were round about me; The snares of death came upon me.
    6 In my distress I called upon Jehovah, And cried unto my God: He heard my voice out of his temple, And my cry before him came into his ears. Ps 18

    4 Pluck me out of the net that they have laid privily for me; For thou art my stronghold.
    5 Into thy hand I commend my spirit: Thou hast redeemed me, O Jehovah, thou God of truth.
    13 For I have heard the defaming of many, Terror on every side: While they took counsel together against me, They devised to take away my life.
    14 But I trusted in thee, O Jehovah: I said, Thou art my God.
    15 My times are in thy hand: Deliver me from the hand of mine enemies, and from them that persecute me.
    16 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant: Save me in thy lovingkindness.
    17 Let me not be put to shame, O Jehovah; for I have called upon thee: Let the wicked be put to shame, let them be silent in Sheol.
    22 As for me, I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: Nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications When I cried unto thee. Ps 31

    ( and there are too many other lengthy ones to include here)
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    That's one deeeeeep post, Brother. Deeper than I can wade right now.

    I always thought the prayer was from Jesus the man, dreading what was coming to Him. The mockings, beatings, spittings, plucking the beard, etc. However, for the joy that was set before Him, He endured the cross.
     
  4. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    I just can't see Him asking to circumvent the cross Willis. Heb 5:7 makes it clear His prayer was HEARD by Him Who was able to save Him from death. Besides, Christ said (a few verses on down same chapter), He knew:

    53 Or thinkest thou that I cannot beseech my Father, and he shall even now send me more than twelve legions of angels?
    54 How then should the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be? Mt 26

    He COULD have circumvented the cross. Thank God, He didn't.

    The notion that He was asking to avoid what was coming also does not jive with this:

    Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. Jn 12:27
     
    #4 kyredneck, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  5. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Jesus had set His focus on one thing and told His Disciples what His mission was , John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

    His whole goal and purpose was to finish His work, to make it to the cross. His Godly side had that in mind the whole time, but our bodies are physical and as Human His physical body would get tired, He slept in the boat for instance, He was hungry and the fig tree had no fruit, His physical body was human and as human subject to the same physical limitattions we are. If anyone of us had gone through the emotional and physical things He did could we have survived it. Was the cup He asked for the physical death of His body in the garden that night. His meat His goal was to do and finish the the Will of Him that sent Him. He was willing but his flesh was limited and needed to be strengthened. The Father Heard and answered that prayer.
     
  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    I take it you don't see those passages from the Psalms to be Messianic and related to what is recorded in Mt 26:39 & Heb 5:7?

    I do.
     
  7. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    Psalms 16:10 is definitely Messianic as I see Him going into the Paradise abode of Hades into Abraham's bosom. Then He transfered those souls to heaven at some Point because Paul says when we die we are absent from the Body and Present with the Lord. Psalms 16:10 deals with that. Yes all these deal with His dying for our Sins and His paying the price with His Blood but He also had to be raised from the dead to prove His salvation true Psalm 30:9 His blood of atonement would do no good if He wasn't raised up from the pits of sheoul, the Paradise abode and He was raised.
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3

    I am looking at this through this perspective. Jesus, while on earth, was 100% man, and 100% God. In His flesh, I think He was dreading the cross. He was dreading the pain of the beatings, plucking His beard from His face, the mockings, slappings, etc.
     
  9. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    I have a question this post has had 56 views and yet just a few replies is it a little deep like convicted1 said?
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1
    Expand Collapse
    Retired Staff

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,011
    Likes Received:
    3
    So, Jesus rescued people from purgatory?
     
  11. humblethinker

    humblethinker
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2011
    Messages:
    1,285
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, it does have ramifications addressed by OT... ;-p

    Here are some verses that seem relevant to the OP:

    Hebrews 12:2b ...For the joy set before him he endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
    4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    No it was not purgatory, purgatory is a holding cell that the catholics believe one can be prayed out of, a little like the mormans believe.

    Paradise was where the O.T. saints went until the Blood that paid for thier sins occured.
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,249
    Likes Received:
    118

    Hello RevMWC, just wanted to say thanks, you are the first person I have yet seen that has actually seen this. Just went through a thread a few weeks back and found agreement with...no-one.

    It is popularly taught that the Lord asking that the cup pass was His humanity "peeking" through, a moment of weakness, so to speak. BUt we know that He knew long before taking on the flesh of man that He purposed to accomplish this task.

    The question I asked myself was...what was the cup? Was it not the wrath of God poured out upon Him Who became sin for us?

    The physical aspect of that which He suffered pales in comparison, I believe, with that which He endured spiritually, whereby He said "My soul is sorrowful, even unto death." And this, going into the Garden. I view this as almost, "I am so sorrowful...it is killing me."

    The translation of "remove" (paraphero) in Luke indicates a connotation of something being taken away, but compare with parerchomai (3928) here:



    Mark 14:35

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    35 He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him.



    Here we see the request that the hour pass (away).




    Matthew 26:39

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will.”



    Now we have the Lord's question here...



    John 12:27

    King James Version (KJV)

    27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.



    ...which would indicate that the Lord's soul is troubled, as we see going into the Garden, and this indicates that asking to be saved from the hour is not something He will ask (because "for this cause He came"), so when we read...



    Mark 14:35

    New King James Version (NKJV)

    35 He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him.



    ...is not only reasonable that He is asking that there be no more waiting, asking to "get it over with," but lines up better with the fact that He came for this purpose, to die for man.

    It seems reasonable to me that rather than asking for "plan B," He is asking that the sorrow He endured (for He knew what was in man) come to an end, and that His suffering (which began well before the Cross, and is likely a spiritual suffering) not be prolonged.

    Okay, just wanted to add my two cents. As I said, you are the only one that I have seen that has actually looked at this differently than the average exposition.

    God bless.
     
  14. revmwc

    revmwc
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,037
    Likes Received:
    69
    I was taught it this way as a youth and had it affirmed a few weeks ago by one of the professors that taught one of my classes, he wused the Hebrews 5:7 passage as a proof of it.
     
  15. kyredneck

    kyredneck
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    10,566
    Likes Received:
    276
    49 I came to cast fire upon the earth; and what do I desire, if it is already kindled?
    50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    51 Think ye that I am come to give peace in the earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
    52 for there shall be from henceforth five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
    53 They shall be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against her mother; mother in law against her daughter in law, and daughter in law against her mother in law. Lu 12

    The above passage does seem to support that Christ wanted to 'get on with it', here referring to the wrath/civil war that was soon to fall upon 'that generation'.

    Considering the pluralities of Heb 5:7:

    Who in the days of his flesh, having offered up prayers and supplications..... Heb 5:7

    ....I doubt this was the first or only time He prayed such, or even the first time in the garden of Gethsemane for that matter. No doubt He was anxious to get the whole ordeal over with and 'get on with' the business of entering into His kingdom.
     
    #15 kyredneck, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  16. HeirofSalvation

    HeirofSalvation
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1
    Indeed DEEP!!!! I have always viewed it as Convicted1 does, minus this caveat... that what he dreaded MOST was not so much the physical (human part) pain and suffering...but rather that he would be separated for the first time from his position of Divinity (the 100% God part). If he BECAME sin, and the Father cannot look upon it... than when the father "forsook" him, then the Father, for the first time turned his back on his Son breaking the eternal fellowship they always had. Neat discussion topic!! I await my reproof:jesus:
     
  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    13,381
    Likes Received:
    728
    Jesus came as surety for all the Father had given to Him in the Covenant of Redemption...He was all about the cross.
    His prayer was not that he would not go to the cross.....He as sinless dreaded the seperation that being made sin for us would entail. he always did the will of the Father....I believe the seperation was in view...

    The Father kept the promise of psalm 16...as explained in Acts 2 as the promise of the Father.
     
  18. Benjamin

    Benjamin
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,893
    Likes Received:
    112
    Did God despise, or think of the Son as filthy (“abhor”) His suffering for our sins? Did He “have to” shrink from the site, hide His face, and could not bear to hear the cries, while turning away from sin, as it is so often traditionally preached?

    Before I go there with my opinion, let me discuss the other example first, when Jesus said, “if it be possible, take this cup from me” it shows that He knew what was coming and had fear of it in the human form; He was then comforted. Don’t really think it could be taken that Jesus didn’t want to fulfill the atonement which was promised Him before the foundation.

    I’ve heard the teaching using Mathew 27:46 many times about how that God had to turn His back on sin in that ninth hour to explain when Jesus said:

    “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mat 27:46)


    But I don’t see God ever turning His back on His Son as the message, but see Jesus continuing to teach us Who He is by drawing our attention to the Psalm saying:

    “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?” (Psa 22:1)

    On a side note; can the Trinitarian Nature of God be separated to the degree of the Father not hearing the Son (The Mediator) as it is often suggested??? I don’t think so…

    Why was Jesus even being allowed to die on the cross? We now know, and I believe this was the point of this saying; Jesus was calling our attention to the truth of who He was, by referring to the scriptural Psalm. This saying was Jesus quoting prophesied scripture, that He very well knew, and I believe it was because He was always teaching who He was, and continued to do this even from the cross in fulfilling the words written about 600 years before.

    Further, what truth is concluded in that Psalm about whether or not God heard Him:

    (Psa 22:24) For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    I don’t buy into the teaching that the Father ever turned His back on the Son.
     
    #18 Benjamin, Mar 27, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 27, 2012
  19. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    0
    I read this view several years ago and don't remember the source. The view is that the "cup" could have been an effort by Satan to kill him in the garden. Jesus was literally under Satanic attack.

    So, one might ask, what difference does it make whether Jesus died in the garden or on the cross? I'm thinking that Satan was trying to thwart Jesus plan to "lay down his life" on the cross. Jesus' death in the garden would mean that he was not the Messiah whose crucifixion was pictured in Psalm 22.

    Jesus had said earlier that no one takes his life from him. He lays it down voluntarily. The death in the garden would have meant that he couldn't keep Satan from taking it, since it was His intent to die on the cross.

    Later, Peter, in Acts 2:23 said that the crucifixion was according to the "determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God." And that those who crucified Jesus had "wicked hands." In other words, this was planned from eternity. If Jesus dies in the Garden, you can see the problem it creates.

    Now,this is a view that I've heard, and I wouldn't bet the farm on it. But it is an interesting view that at least is worth considering.
     
  20. percho

    percho
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    3,894
    Likes Received:
    37
    For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
    Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

    So are you all saying there was no temptation in the Garden?

    Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. (The Father sent help) And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him. (Not sure how much he helped)
    And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. (Methinks he was striving against something here. Do you think it may could have been this?) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. (Did Jesus resist unto blood striving against sin?)

    Then later that day what happened? For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree,
    Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten (to be (fatally) smitten, be killed, be slain) of God, and afflicted. But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid [his] face from you, that he will not hear.

    Yet you do not believe this means what it says: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?”

    Is death (separation from God) the wages for sin? Did Jesus pay it all?

    And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation

    To whom do you you believe the grace of God was first applied that brought salvation for man?

    Was that grace through (because of) the faith?
     

Share This Page

Loading...