Jesus walking over the sea

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Goinheix, Aug 5, 2011.

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  1. Goinheix

    Goinheix
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    This is discussion that it is not closed. It has nothing to do with any other thread (except for the one named "did Jesus wlked over the water?"). The discussion on if Jesus did or did not walked over the water started in another thread; but this present thread is not intended to revive or continue the main disscusion on that original thread. To disscus the other issue we had an own and proper thread. That thread was closed and we have to asume that the discusion on that topic was long enough and it was nothing left to say.

    I will apreciate if we can focus in this very topic without going back to the topic just closed.

    Did Jesus walked over the water in the fashion that all of as picture and visulize? Or is the Gospel saying something different that we can not see because of the traditional interpretation?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    The gospel is saying what it says. Jesus walked on the water. Peter walked on the water. The boat was in the midst of the sea.

    The disciples were terrified because people cannot walk on water and thought Jesus was a ghost. Had he been walking through or around the water, the disciples would have thought nothing of it.
    Matthew 14:24-29

    How anyone could come to the conclusion that Jesus did not walk on the water is beyond me. You may not believe that He did that, but there is no doubt that the bible says He did.
     
  3. Tom Bryant

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    In both Matthew and Mark, the Bible states clearly that he was walking on the water. In fact, it says it twice in both passages.

    Thee are a lot of applications for this passage. But there are no differences of what actually occurred.
     
  4. Don

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    Going back to how I answered you in the original thread, Amy answered the first 3 points or so that I presented.

    You must also take into account what happened when Peter asked to go out on the water with Jesus: He took his eyes off Jesus and started to sink. Kinda hard to sink into the water if you're not on the water to begin with.

    I also pointed out that afterwards, Jesus and Peter went on the ship, which, as pointed out, was in the midst of the sea.

    So, G, now it's your turn: Why, when so many verses point out that they were on the water, you insist Jesus wasn't?
     
  5. InTheLight

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    Absolutely.

    John 6:19 So when they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near the boat; and they were afraid. 20 But He said to them, “It is I; do not be afraid.” 21 Then they willingly received Him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land where they were going.

    Notice the underlined parts. The apostles were in a boat on the water approximately 3 1/2 miles from shore. They saw Jesus walking toward them on the sea. Jesus got into the boat.

    I see no way of interpreting this that Jesus was not walking on water.

    Also notice in verse 21 that Jesus 'transported' the boat and the occupants instantly from 3 1/2 miles out at sea to land. Don't want to derail this thread but that is a display of omnipotence.
     
    #5 InTheLight, Aug 5, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 5, 2011
  6. Goinheix

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    Obviously we have to take the full picture and also pay attention to each detail.

    The over all situation is that the disciples left early (than Jesus) in a rowing boat. The confronted strog weather that slowes them dow. The night came on and Jesus was not aware of the situation.

    Eventually Jesus departed aswell. According to me he did walk over the high ground in the north coat of the sea/lake. According to the traditional interpretation he walked across the sea/lake crossing it steping over the water.

    In a determined moment Jesus realizes that the boat was not advancing. Now knowing the situation he atempted to loverpass them. It is implied that by doing that Jesus was trying to assit them. But Jesus, despite trying did fail on his atempt.

    Then the disciples see him. According to me Jesus was walking in the shallow waters infront of the mouth of the Jordan river. According to the traditional interpretation Jesus was walking over deep water.

    Them the disciples are catch by surprise, confuse Jesus with some gost and Jesus identifies himself bringing them calm.

    In consecuence, Peter ask Jesus fro him to walk over the waters. According to me, Peter did get out of the boat, believing to be in deep, and steped in the shallow. The traditional onterpretation is all hapeniong in the deep waters.

    At the begining, Peter susceede to walk, but he sinks when taking hius eyes from Jesus. In that we have the same discrepancy concerning how deep it was.

    Finally Jesus enters the boat and after arriving to the coast the disciples are wander and amused aboiut the fact.

    This is a overall description pointing out the discrepancies. Probably my account in not much acurate but is an general description of the facts.
     
  7. Goinheix

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    Matthew
    22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.


    23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

    24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

    25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

    26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

    27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.

    28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

    29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

    30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

    31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth [his] hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

    32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.

    33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.



    Mark
    45 And straightway he constrained his disciples to get into the ship, and to go to the other side before unto Bethsaida, while he sent away the people.

    46 And when he had sent them away, he departed into a mountain to pray.

    47 And when even was come, the ship was in the midst of the sea, and he alone on the land.

    48 And he saw them toiling in rowing; for the wind was contrary unto them: and about the fourth watch of the night he cometh unto them, walking upon the sea, and would have passed by them.

    49 But when they saw him walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been a spirit, and cried out:

    50 For they all saw him, and were troubled. And immediately he talked with them, and saith unto them, Be of good cheer: it is I; be not afraid.

    51 And he went up unto them into the ship; and the wind ceased: and they were sore amazed in themselves beyond measure, and wondered.

    52 For they considered not [the miracle] of the loaves: for their heart was hardened.


    Jhon
    16 And when even was [now] come, his disciples went down unto the sea,

    17 And entered into a ship, and went over the sea toward Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus was not come to them.

    18 And the sea arose by reason of a great wind that blew.

    19 So when they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

    20 But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid.

    21 Then they willingly received him into the ship: and immediately the ship was at the land whither they went.
     
    #7 Goinheix, Aug 5, 2011
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  8. Goinheix

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    Now let see some detail.

    In all three acounts, the greek word translated as walking is peripaton. peripaton is "going around", not exactly walking.

    In all three acounts the greek word translated as upon, and popularly taken as over, is epi. Epi is always over the limit, just outside. The word for over it will be hyper (or huper), and is not the word used by the 3 original gospels.

    In all three acount the word for sea and popiularly taken as water is thalassan wich means Sea or sea.

    If we take the sentence out of the traditional context and give it to a translator without telling him that is about the Bible; he will translate as if Jesus were walking arround the coast at the edge of the Galily Sea.

    The original greek text in all three Gospels dont say that Jesus were walking over the water. Not at all. That is a traditional picture we have and is very difficult to get off.
     
  9. InTheLight

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    Into the killfile for thee.
     
  10. Goinheix

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    In the cae of Peter, the greek word is udata, that is water.
    There is a difference between Jesus walking upon the Sea and Peter walking over the water.
     
  11. Don

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    Not sure which Greek dictionary you're using. The one I reference identifies it as "walk," the same word used in Matthew 4:18, Matthew 9:5, Matthew 11:5, Mark 2:9, Mark 5:42, and a lot of other verses.

    Not sure who taught you that it will always be translated as "hyper." That is patently untrue. The word can also be translated as "at, by, against, or across"; the nature of the translation has to do with the context in which the word is used.

    Agreed.

    I don't necessarily agree with this. Having spent time in the middle east, dealing extensively with translators, encouraging them to translate my words exactly (and not putting their own understanding into what they thought I meant), your point can only be that the translator you're describing will inject their own meaning into the wording, rather than translating exactly as written.

    Kind of hard to get away from that traditional picture when you have several elements -- such as the word "midst," identifying where exactly in the sea the boat was located -- that indicate that Jesus would have to perform some form of miracle to reach the ship.
     
  12. Don

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    Considering that the sea is made up of water, what exactly is the difference?
     
  13. glfredrick

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    Van, is it you? I sense similar interpretation skills... :wavey:
     
  14. Amy.G

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    Why would the disciples be afraid? If it was shallow water, they would have said something like "who is that guy walking around in the mud?".


    Your account is certainly not accurate therefore it is not fact.


    [​IMG]
     
  15. Amy.G

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    Well in the Goinheix version of the bible, the boat was a toy and it was floating in the midst of a mud puddle (which contained water) and Jesus stepped over it.
     
  16. Don

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    Actually, in the Goinheix version, Jesus walked on the sea, but Peter walked on water. If both were in the same location (i.e, sea of Galilee), I'm trying to understand the difference, in Goinheix's mind, between "sea" and "water" is.
     
  17. DHK

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    Jesus was fully aware of all things around him. He is God. He is omniscient. It is one of his divine attributes. You can see it here.
    1. omniscience
    Your opinion is worth zilch; nada; zero.
    It is God's opinion that we go by. His is written in the Word of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit, preserved and given to us as the very words of God. Who is more authoritative: you or God? I vote for God.
    Again, your opinion. It is worth zilch; zero points. That is not what God says. It is not in the Biblical account. You lose.
    It is like saying "put up or shut up." What traditional account? Where are your sources? Quote them! Be honest--you have none. Traditional sources say that he walked on water. That has been the orthodox position ever since the apostles.
    Furthermore, how do you walk over water without walking on the water? Did he fly? That would have been more of a miracle, even more supernatural than that which was recorded.
    Quote the Scripture please or don't make unwarranted assumptions.
    You say that Jesus failed. What? Did he sin? Or did he lose his power? Either way you are saying Jesus is not God. God doesn't lose power. God never fails. Jesus cannot fail. To say such is blasphemous.
    There is no according to "you". We go "according to the Bible." It is the Bible that is our authority, not you or any other person.
    The Bible does not say that. It speaks nothing of shallow waters. It speaks of the waters being deep--deep enough for Peter to sink and drown.
    That is what the Bible says. The water was deep.
    Yes, Jesus calms the seas.
    This is a demonstration of his second divine attribute:
    2. His Omnipotence No other man has such power.
    There is no according to you; only according to the Bible.
    That is not what the Bible says; that is what you say. You are wrong; the Bible is right. God is right every time.
    That is because God inspired the Scriptures. They are given to us by the Holy Spirit of God. Your argument is against God, not with man.
    No discrepancy. He begins to sink and he fears. He fears for the water is deep enough for him to drown in. There was the very real possibility that had he kept on sinking into the deep waters he would have drowned.
    No, before entering into the boat, Jesus makes sure that he takes care of Peter first.
    You don't have the facts straight at all. You don't follow the account. You follow your imagination. Follow the Word of God. Follow God's words. His words are more valuable than your words.
     
  18. Goinheix

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    It is hard to get away from the traditional picture because it has been teached and repeated millons times. The boat what at the midst of the sea several hours before the encounter with Jesus.


    Concerning the correct translations i will come back with more acurate information.
     
  19. Goinheix

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    The difference is that wlaking arroiund the Sea is not the same as walking above the water.
     
  20. Goinheix

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    My acount is not acurate at all. I already say that.
    What is acurate is that when Jesus knew of the situation; becose he was not aware of it; he went to try to help the disciples. Even he faikled in his intend, is him trying to help the explanation of all the situation.

    The disciples didnt know where they were. They thot all the time to be in deep water. This what Jesus was trying to comunicate to them, but it was not possible for him to do it.
     
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