Jesus was a Calvinist?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by superdave, Apr 11, 2003.

  1. superdave

    superdave
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    Ok, so that was trolling a little bit,

    John 17 The "High Priestly Prayer" or whatever you happen to call it

    1b-3

    "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    Pretty clear teaching of the sovereignty of God in salvation. I see some elements of Election and Limited atonement in that one statement.

    This is merely one example of the clear scriptural teaching of God having complete sovereign control over the salvation of mankind

    What do you think this verse means? :D
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Where does it say that in the scriptures that he was Calvinist? :rolleyes: ... I always thought he was Jewish?... This is the King of the Jews!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  3. William C

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    Some Arminians might argue that 'those whom the Father has given the Son" are those God has foreknown as being ones who believe and follow. This would be the same explaination as given in reference to Romans 8 or Eph. 1. (I'm sure you are fimiliar with this)

    I tend to think that the phrase, "those whom the Father has given to the Son" is in reference to those who are literally entrusted to Jesus, the incarnate Christ in flesh, to learn and recieve gifting from him personally. These were called the apostles.

    Look at this passage again with that in mind:

    "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they may know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

    The HOUR is come; glorify thy SON who has been given power over all flesh -- he is clearly talking about present day activities of the incarnate man, Jesus Christ in the flesh. That He, Christ in flesh, should give eternal life to as many God has given to him while in the flesh so that they may know God and Jesus whom God sent.

    Does this mean that Christ after the acention when he becomes Spirit will not also give eternal life? No. He will give eternal life to all who believe in the message brought by the appointed apostles. But not everyone has been "given to Christ in the flesh" to be an apostle.

    Why do I think he is speaking about apostles when he makes the statement "those whom God has given?" Read on into chapter 17 and you will see that he uses the same phrase in reference to the 12. In fact, everytime John uses this phrase I believe he is refering to the apostles who have been given to the Incarnate Word while he is in the flesh.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    In John 17:9 our Lord says, 'I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given me; for they are Thine.'

    Does this mean that Jesus only came to die for the few? No. It means that all who believe/trust in Him have been and still are being prayed for by Him [Hebrews 7:25 & I John 2:1] that they will finally enter glory above. It is true that He is not praying for every sinner because He in His omnscience knows that they will fall short of genuinely believing in the benefits of the Cross. He prays only for His elected saints.

    We are told that we are being saved by believing in Him, [John 1:12] and confessing His Name and reality before a lost world. [Matthew 10:32; Luke 12:8] This is also confirmed just a few verses down from John 17:9 in verse twenty where Jesus says, 'Neither pray I for these alone {those around Jesus at the time} but for those also which shall {yet} believe on Me.' {those who believe after His resurrection and ascension} Then comes these very interesting words. ' . . . which shall believe on Me through their word. Dr. A.T. Robertson, the noted Greek scholar says, 'Through the agency of conversation and preaching, blessed privilege only to all believers thus to win men to
    Christ, but an agency sadly limited by the lives of those who speak in Christ's name.'

    The overriding contingency for being a part of His pray is a human response of faith in Jesus Christ. [Romans 5:1] He is only praying for those who believe in Him, as clearly demonstrated in His words, ' . . . but for those who shall believe on Me,' through their written or vocal witness or by preaching the Gospel. The New Century Version agrees with my explanation where it says, 'I pray for these followers, but I am also praying for all those who will believe in Me because of their teaching.'

    Secret believers are few and far between. How can you not witness to Jesus after He changes your life?

    Your Topic Starter read "Jesus Was a Calvinist?" I would more closely suggest the truth in this statement. Jesus is pleased with Arminian Theology which not only teaches that only He can minister grace and bring us to the ultimate joy of Heaven and not forgetting that He has chosen to make human beings responsible to Him through repentance and belief in His saving benefits. [John 3:16]

    If Jesus were autocratically giving His elect to Father, there would be no need of responsibility for the sinner in confessing his horrible sins before a holy God. His decree toward the lost and the saved would be more than enough.

    John 17:9 is true. 'I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine.' John 17:20 is also true. 'Neither pray I for these alone, but for those also who shall believe on Me through their word.'

    Responsibility toward God requires personal belief in Jesus Christ.
     
  5. Frogman

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    Originally posted by Brother Bill:
    Notice what you have said and what I have placed in bold.

    It is this that is part of what we as believers "believe" though we do not see him in the incarnate flesh, we certainly must believe this to be the Son of God, I believe this is even essential even to believing any of the rest of the Christian faith.

    What I would draw on here is the fact that David said '...He would not suffer his Holy one to see corruption...' (paraphrased), so then that the body of Christ did/has not returned to the dust from whence it came, then, Christ is now at present at the right hand of the father and in possession of the marks of the crucifixion (I always have trouble spelling that).

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  6. William C

    William C
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    Notice what you have said and what I have placed in bold.

    It is this that is part of what we as believers "believe" though we do not see him in the incarnate flesh, we certainly must believe this to be the Son of God, I believe this is even essential even to believing any of the rest of the Christian faith.</font>[/QUOTE]
    So do I. We must believe the message or the testimony of the apostles where as they had to believe Christ himself.

    Regardless, not everyone was given to Christ while in the flesh to be an apostle and I believe that is what this passage is in reference to. However, it is given to everyone in the world to hear their message so that they might believe.
     
  7. npetreley

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    Emphasis mine...

    Authority over all flesh. Not "all the flesh who happen to be standing within earshot of this particular prayer". Not "only the apostles who hear me while I'm here in the pre-resurrected flesh, except you need to read the fine print about how I'll deal the same way with Paul and others even though I will already have been resurrected by then."

    And what is this authority for? Is it "that they should spread the word as specially appointed apostles who are saved differently than the rest?" No, it is "that He should give eternal life". To whom? "To as many as You have given Him."

    As you read John 17, Jesus does address some prayers to specially appointed disciples/apostles, but it does violence to scripture to say these cancel out the foundation He lays with the opening verses regarding authority over all flesh, and how He applies that authority.
     
  8. Frogman

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    This is taken from Vincent's Word Studies.

    Bro. Dallas

    Joh 17:2 -
    Power (ἐξουσίαν)
    Rev., rightly, authority. See on Joh_1:12.

    All flesh
    A Hebrew phrase, denoting the whole of humanity in its imperfection. See Gen_6:12; Psa_65:2; Isa_40:5, etc.

    That He should give eternal life to as many as Thou hast given Him (ἵνα πᾶν ὃ δέδωκας αὐτῷ, δώσῃ αὐτοῖς ζωὴν αἰώνιον)
    Literally, that all that Thou hast given Him, to them He should give eternal life. All (πᾶν), singular number, regards the body of Christian disciples collectively: to them, individually.
     
  9. William C

    William C
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    The phrase "given to Him" is in reference to Him, the Incarnate Christ, not to Him "the Father" or Him "the Spirit."

    This is talking about those who it has been given to come to Christ while he was on earth so that they might receive eternal life and complete the unque task that they were entrusted with. Apostles are saved by Grace in the atoning work of the Cross just like the rest of us, but they were appointed differently in that they were the only ones given to come to the Son and learn from him in the flesh.

    Look at verse 4 of chapter 17, "I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."

    Is he speaking about all the work he does from now to eternity? No. He is speaking about the work that He the Son was given to do while in the flesh.

    Verse 6: "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world." Is he speaking about everyone who he reveals himself to throughout the course of human history. NO. "For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them...I pray for them, I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours...none has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled." Its clear he is speaking of his apostles in this passage.

    But if you want to apply it to all who believe through their message, fine, but you have once again removed any uniquness to Christ's references to his divinely appointed apostles thus weakening the authority of their apostleship and undermining their written words as being inspired from above.
     
  10. Bible-belted

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    The reason it is applied to all whole will believe is because the context supports it. To assert that we must interpret it otherwise because we feel some other theological principle must be supported is poor interpretation.

    Your reasoning here is fallacious. There are plenty of other texts that speak to the inspiration of the aposltic writers and their writings. I would argue infact that to force teachings where they don't exist ruins the credibility of the Scriptures and undermines things far more.
     
  11. William C

    William C
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    The People's New Testament Commentary explains it this way:

      6. I have manifested thy name to the men which thou gavest me, etc. In the first five verses he had prayed for himself. Now he prays for his disciples. The apostles are especially meant.

          9. I pray for them. The apostles. The prayer from verse 9 to verse 19 is for these. I pray not for the world. Not at this time; he came into the world to save it, and we are not to conclude that he would never pray for its conversion and welfare, Now, however, his petition is confined to the apostles, the little band who are hanging upon his words.

          10. I am glorified in them. Christ's glory here upon the earth is manifested by his disciples.

          11. I am no more in the world, but these are in the world. He now goes to the Father; these are left behind to preach the gospel, establish his kingdom, manifest his glory. Hence, he pleads that he may "keep them through his name," or power and love. He especially pleads that they may be kept "one," united as the Father and the Son.

          12. None of them is lost, but the son of perdition. God had given him twelve; he had kept them in the name of the Father, and only one was lost, Judas, the traitor, the son of perdition, which the Scripture had predicted. See Psa. 41:9.

          15, 16. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world. The world had hated the Master and was about to slay him, because he was not of the world. So it would hate the apostles, who were not of the world, and seek to slay them; he does not pray that they should be taken out of the world, for they have a work to do, but that the Father would keep them from the power of the evil one.
     
  12. Frogman

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    Yes, that is why it said that He is given power (authority RV, I think), to give this eternal life to these who have been given to him, if something is given, there must be someone who was in possession of the 'gift' before it is given, God is this person.

    God Bless.
    Bro. dallas
     
  13. William C

    William C
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    Online Study Bible
    Another viable Arminian translation of this text could be:

    17:2
    just as You gave Him authority over all flesh; so that He may give eternal life to all You have given Him.

    Notice the the Greek word for "give" is in the subjuctive which is why the word "may" is used in the English. This shows that those who are given by God to the Son may or may not be given eternal life, therefore he cannot be speaking about the "elect" as taught by Calvinism because you all believe that "those given to Christ" will most definitely receive eternal life, not that they may or may not receive it as the subjunctive case shows.

    You may say that the subjunctive case proves that "those the Father gives" could not be in refence to the apostles as I have interpreted this passage and you would be correct if one of those apostles was not Judas.
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Superdave, In context, Jesus is speaking only of the Apostles when he said "that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him".
    Here's more,
    John 17 Verses 1-3 Jesus is speaking of his Apostles, those whom he put through school for 3 1/2 years, who "finally" came to know who and what Jesus is!

    Therefore, to use John 17 1-3 to support election as a doctrine is completely erroneous, for this verse applies only to the twelve that Jesus raised up in the faith.

    The implication coming from this is that anyone who believes who and what Jesus is and places their trust in Jesus will also have the eternal life that Jesus prayed for his Apostles.
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    Okay I've had my fun with you brethren... Now lets get serious... Can it be proven that Jesus taught all the Calvin taught?... NO!

    Can it be proven that Jesus taught all that Arminius taught?... NO!

    But in the right application both will harmonize in part and you can all disgree with me if you want,

    Calvin taught Gospel regeneration... Whereas the Primitive Baptist and the scriptures teach Spiritual regeneration.

    Calvin also taught that all the elect of God will hear the Gospel if not how can they then be regenerated? Must they hear the written gospel to be saved eternally or is the saving mentioned a timely salvation because one already has the eternal?... Primitive Baptist believe this also.

    If the written gospel saves eternally what is the Living Gospel for?... Search the scriptures for in them ye think ye have eternal life and they are they that testify of me. The eternal life is not in the written gospel but the Living.

    I'm a Primitive Baptist in belief and doctrine... Our eternal salvation is in my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and there is nothing I did or could do to obtain it.

    My timely salvation or I guess I could call it my obedient salvation is according to the blessings or non blessing I receive in this life. It is according to my walk with the Lord Jesus... Disobedient children may incur the displeasure of the Father but they are still his grace wrought blood bought children and they can never lose that!... Brother Glen [​IMG] & Sister Charlotte [​IMG]
     
  16. Frogman

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    This certainly gives new meaning to the statement of Christ that no greater love hath man than that he lay down his life for his friends...he only had twelve friends and one of these the son of perdition...according to this, the atonement is very, very limited to 12 men, except that 'others may believe'.

    Yelsew, I think you and Brother Bill have founded a whole new denomination... No, wait, the quakers were the Society of Friends...sorry, they beat ya to it:D

    God Bless.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  17. Frogman

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    Bro. Glen,
    I agree with you, but I would say that the spiritual regeneration involves the gospel even as the spirit taught the gospel to Abraham.

    God Bless.
    Bro. dallas
     
  18. Yelsew

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    Amen Bro. Glen!


    Bro. Dallas, You have consistantly failed to grasp the context of Jesus' prayer, not just the words, but the whole setting and Jesus life leading up to the moment of the prayer itself and following in the realization of the Church of Jesus Christ, and the New Jerusalem.

    Jesus was in fact sanctifying and dedicating the Apostles to the Father, a "graduation and pre-commission if you will, in preparation for the building of Jesus Church who are "the whosoever believeth's".

    Jesus had given to the apostles the blueprint for the church, and had laid the foundation in the twelve...a very symbolic number eluding to the New Jerusalem.
    To think that Jesus was speaking of the elect whose names were written before the foundation of the world is a misinterpretation of scripture.
     
  19. Frogman

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    Ok, you worry me when you Amen Bro Glen like that but have a disagreement with me.

    If this is the pre-commission exercise of the apostles what do you do with the commission they received in Matt. 10 and corresponding places? What do you do with the fact that John 4 records they were already baptizing?

    If you can answer these questions I would heartily agree with you, yet you cannot because you cannot see the foundation of the church prior to pentecost. Christ had no reason to be offering this prayer in the way you provide, even if he did, it does not change the fact that he had in view all who had been given to him of the Father.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
  20. Yelsew

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    Lessons in Church leadership would include those events. But this time the professor is preparing to leave the physical church to return to his former glory.

    My Amen for Bro. Glen is for the passion he has expressed for his God and Father. Not that passion is something to be praised, but the object of his passion is.
     

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