JESUS WAS SPRINKLED !!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Smoky, May 8, 2003.

  1. Smoky

    Smoky
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    Jesus was sprinkled because the baptism he received from John was an annointing for a very special high priesthood "after the order of Melchesideck" where he became the great High Priest for the entire world by eliminating the Aaronic priesthood and establishing a better priesthood under a new covenant. See also: Heb. 7:11-17; Heb. 7:21- 8:7; Heb. 9: 23-26; Heb. 10: 12-22;

    Hebrews 5:5-6 (ESV)
    So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him,
    "You are my Son,
    today I have begotten you";

    [6] as he says also in another place,
    "You are a priest forever,
    after the order of Melchizedek."

    We read that it was at his baptism that God aknowledged His Son:

    Luke 3:22 (ESV)
    and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."

    It is evident that John's baptism of Jesus was in fact an annointing for this great "high priesthood"? John said, "for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to israel" John 1: 31. " Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness". Then he consented." John knew that Jesus needed no repentance like the rest of his candidates for baptism and the one thing that convinced him to baptize Jesus was the request to "fullfill all righteousness" This meant the fullfilling of the Law required for the annointing of priests found in Exodus 40: 11-12 and Num. 8:6-7. After Jesus was baptized, we are told that he commensed a ministry of teaching and preaching in and around the temple, a prerogotive normally given only to priests:
    Luke 20:1-7 (ESV)
    One day, as Jesus was teaching the people in the temple and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the scribes with the elders came up
    [2] and said to him, "Tell us by what authority you do these things, or who it is that gave you this authority." [3] He answered them, "I also will ask you a question. Now tell me, [4] Was the baptism of John from heaven or from man?" [5] And they discussed it with one another, saying, "If we say, 'From heaven,' he will say, 'Why did you not believe him?' [6] But if we say, 'From man,' all the people will stone us to death, for they are convinced that John was a prophet." [7] So they answered that they did not know where it came from.

    John himself, being a priest, had the authority to annoint Jesus as priest. We know that Jesus followed the law concerning circumcision and the various feast days, and was baptized by John at age 30, the normal age for the annointing of priests, and by the authority of his baptism he conducted his ministry in the temple.
    John was both priest and prophet . His father was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah, and his mother was Elizabeth from the daughters of Aaron. The Aaronic priesthood was handed down from father to son. It was while Zechariah was ministering in the temple that the Lord appeared to him and told him to name his son John. John's father and John himself were annointed for the priesthood from a basin located between the alter and the tent of meeting, a basin normally used to wash the hands and feet of the priests before they entered into the tent to minister. On the special occassion of a person called to the priesthood, they were annointed for the office by a baptism from this basin.

    Exodus 40:11-12 (ESV)
    You shall also anoint the basin and its stand, and consecrate it. [12] Then you shall bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance of the tent of meeting and shall wash them with water

    The Bible describes how these washings were to be done. John baptized by sprinkling and pouring because this was the law God gave and the only law he knew anything about. David said : "Purge me with hyssop , and I shall be clean, wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" (Psalm 51:7). The hyssop was a plant or weed that held a lot of water and was especially suitable for ceremonial sprinklings when dipped in water. Num. 19:18-19, "And a clean person shall take hyssop, and dip it in the water, and sprinkle it upon the tent, and upon the vessels, and upon the persons that were there, and upon him that touched a bone, or one slain, or one dead, or a grave: and the clean person shall sprinkle upon the unclean on the third day and on the seventh day." In Numbers 19:18 we read: "Because the water of separation was not sprinkled upon him he shall be unclean." Here is Gods command for the Levitical priests: Num. 8:7: " Thus you shall do to them to cleanse them: sprinkle the water of purification upon them" This is what John did at his baptisms probably using the hyssop weed. His manner of baptizing caused the Pharisees to think that he himself was Christ because the same book of law and prophecy that predicted his ministry as forerunner predicted that the Messiah would "sprinkle many nations" (Isa. 52:15). They even sent Jews, priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him if he were the Christ. John 1:25, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ , nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?" they asked." From this we know that Jesus was to come sprinkling and pouring with the Holy Spirit, while John was to come baptising with water.

    Matthew 3:11 (ESV)
    "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

    Acts 10:43-47 (ESV)
    To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
    [44] While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. [45] And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. [46] For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, [47] "Can anyone withold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

    Acts 11:15-16 (ESV)
    As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them just as on us at the beginning. [16] And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, 'John baptized with water , but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit .'

    It is amazing how water baptism and spirit baptism are always interconnected in the book of Acts, and since it is always true that Jesus "pours" the Spirit, we know that John poured the water becausse they are both baptisms , one symbolizing the other. " With water" could not mean immersion, if "with the Holy Spirit" means pouring.
     
  2. Johnv

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    Good post.

    The bottom line is: Sprinkling/pouring/dunking/dripping/throwing a bucket at: Does it matter?
     
  3. SolaScriptura in 2003

    SolaScriptura in 2003
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    While yet on earth, He was not a priest. Therefore, your main premise is wrong: the baptism of John was not to anoint Christ to be a priest after the order o Melchisedek! In fact, based on what the Scripture says you will be hard-pressed to prove that Jesus was a priest after any order prior to His resurrection - in fact, you can't prove it because the Bible says the exact opposite - when He was on earth He was not a priest.

    This passage of Holy Scripture plainly indicates that Christ was made a priest after the order of Melchisedek at or after His resurrection! He could not be a priest until the Law was changed - when was the Law changed? When Jesus nailed the Old Law to the cross and instituted the New Testament (the New Law) by His death! So, then, He must not have been made a priest before the Law was changed, that is before the cross, for that would be unlawful! Also, He is made a priest not by a carnal commandment but by the "power of an endless life" - the fact that He has the power of an endless life was not manifest prior to the resurrection, therefore, it must be when He was resurrected that He became a priest.

    This speaks of His ascension most obviously.

    Now concerning sprinkling, nothing need be said except that anyone who reads the account of Jesus' baptism will note how rediculous it is to think that He was sprinkled and how those who hold such a doctrine do so due to bias alone - "lets go out into the river to be sprinkled"! Some have no doubt replaced the Bible with NBC's Jesus movie in which they show John the Baptist standing in the middle of the river and then Jesus goes out to meet him, and both of them are in water up to their wastes but John (disregarding the super-abundance of water round about him) takes a cup and pours it on his head. If John were going to pour a cup of water on people's heads he would travel trough the cities with a cup of water rather than hanging out at a river - it's quite obvious to anyone with any honesty that he immersed. The "much water" that John needed to baptize does not correspond to sprinkling! Anyone who has any honesty in himself whatsoever is forced to admit that Jesus was baptized by immersion and that John baptized by immersion.

    (John 3:23) And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

    (Mat 3:16) And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

    Furthermore, concerning the spirit of error that asks "does it really matter?" implying the answer "No," I have this to say: If you don't think the manner in which a person is baptized matters then you doubtless don't think Christ matters either nor His gospel. "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema." (1 Cor 16:22)
     
  4. Benny C.

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    I think it does. Sorry, but I really have to question the validity of something as dangerous as bucket-throwing!

    Beyond that, nah. It's symbolic.
     
  5. Smoky

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    Sola, this scripture doesn't say that Jesus wasn't a priest while he was on earth during his time, quite the contrary, it only says that if he were still on earth, that is if he hadn't trully offered himself once and for all for our sins and passed through the heavens, he wouldn't be a priest at all because, unlike earthly priests who have to continually offer sacrifices, our Lord had to do it once and for all. Notice verse 4 says that it is necessary for THIS PRIEST , that is, Jesus, to have something to offer. Now an earthly priest doesn't become a priest after he offers his sacrifice, he offers his sacrifice because he has already been annointed priest. So did our Lord have to already be a priest before he could offer himself up for our sins.

    Notice Hebrews 9:12 (ESV)
    he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

    Notice Hebrews 5:5 (ESV)
    So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you";

    Compare this to the Lords baptism where God spoke and said, You are my beloved Son of which I am well pleased!

    Notice: Hebrews 7:11-15 (ESV)
    " Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? [12] For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well. [13] For the one of whom these things are spoken ( that is Jesus being designated priest after the order of Melchizedek ) belonged to another tribe, from which no one has ever served at the altar. [14] For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests.
    [15] This becomes even more evident when another priest arises in the likeness of Melchizedek". Notice that it was because our Lord was from the tribe of Judah, and not the Levitical tribe of Aaron that he had to be designated a "priest after the order of Melchizedek" instead of after the Aaronic priesthood.

    Notice Hebrews 10:5-13 (ESV)
    Consequently, when Christ came into the world , he said,
    "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
    but a body have you prepared for me;
    [6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings
    you have taken no pleasure.
    [7] Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God ,
    as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.' "
    [8] When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), [9] then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. [10] And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
    [11] And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [12] But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [13] waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet.

    These arguments have been answered so many times I don't even know why anyone brings them up anymore. The "much water" was needed for pouring when John was baptizing multitudes around Judea in a land where drinking water was scarce. They also needed water for their animals. I can set at the beach and watch kids go "down in the water" and come "out of the water" all day without them even getting their shirts wet. According to the original languages, we don't have to assume that Jesus and John were even in the water at all. Going "in" the water can also mean going "to" the water.

    Respectfully,
    Smoke Eater
     
  6. Smoky

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    Thanks Johnv, no I don't think it really makes any difference as long as one's heart is right. It's so refreshing to find a baptist that has that attitude.
     
  7. RaptureReady

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    Baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. So, did they sprinkle dirt on His head or did they burial him.?
    If sprinkling is scripturely correct for baptism, why did John in John 3:23 need much water.
     
  8. Smoky

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    The Bible never says that baptism is a picture of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. True, we are buried and resurrected with Christ through our baptism, but we are also "crucified" with him through baptism. Romans 6:4-6 (ESV)
    We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
    [5] For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [6] We know that our old self was curcified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.
    You see, baptism unites us to our Lord Jesus Christ through the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
    When we have Jesus living within us, it's as though he took all the punishment for our sins upon himself and, instead of us, he paid the price. This includes crucifiction as well as burial and resurrection. Immersion under water cannot picture a crucifiction . In fact, it cannot picture how our Lord was buried either because he was laid in a tomb where he could have no "dirt poured over him" in the convintional sense. A resurrection is a "rising up" and our Lord's resurrection ocurred before he even came out of his "grave". Rising up from the water hardly pictures this.
    As for baptism taking much water, well, if you are baptizing multitudes of people in the wilderness where John the Baptist preached, pouring would take a lot of water also. The "much water" you are talking about actually means "many streams" and since it refers to the place name "Aenon" it probably means "many springs" . That's what "Aenon" means. So the much water you are talking about probably referred to the numerous small springs bubling up at that location, as they do to this day.

    Regards,
    Smoke Eater
     
  9. RaptureReady

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    I believe a careful study of Romans 6 will show that it is not water baptism but spiritual baptism it is talking about.

    So I guess the tomb had a sun roof.

    Pouring was not said, sprinkling was. Still even if you did pour water on your head, I think a barrel or two would do the trick.
     
  10. Jim1999

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    Queen Elizabeth I was immersed as an infant as was the practice of the Anglican Church......Rather strange, I should think, that a church so soon removed from Rome would change from sprinkling to immersion, even if the candidate was incorrect.

    Sprinling did not enter the Anglican Church until after the Presbyterians had gained power in the British parliament.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  11. Smoky

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    Then where do you get the idea that baptism "pictures" the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ?

    No, but the Lord was already resurrected before he came out. Coming out of water cannot picture him rising up from a burial slab. The water is supposed to represent a grave which he rises out of!

    They both mean the same thing: The outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Are you sure it wouldn't take five or six barrels? Don't be rediculous, it's a symbol
     
  12. Smoky

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    Well, I think the first error that the chruch of Rome commited was to change from the simple form of sprinkling and pouring to an elaborate form of immersion.

    "In New Testament times baptism had been celebrated in a very simple and straightforward way. Then in the next three or four centuries of Christian history, the rite of baptism developed from a very simple performing of the baptismal washing into an elaborate mystery drama . This process reached its culmination in the elaborate paschal baptisms of the fourth and fifth centuries. The Christian literature of this period has preserved many records of these dramatic ceremonies. One cannot help but be impressed by the dramatic splendor of these liturgical dramas. They were designed to initiate into the Christian Church the pagan population of antiquity. This population was accustomed to the dramatic rites of the Hellenistic mystery religions. The Church sought to win over these pagans with Christisn mysteries more splendid that the old pagan mysteries .
    These Christian initiation rites typically began several weeks before Easter with a solemn enrolling of the candidates for baptism. This initial enrolling was followed by several weeks of catechetical instruction; this was a period of intensive teaching, in which the basic doctrines of the Church were explained. Each of these meetings for catechetical instruction was accompanied by special prayers, exorcisms, and other rites. Often the bishop himself preached at these services. On the morning before Easter, the candidates for baptism came to the church to recite the Creed; then that night the paschal vigil began. Toward dawn those who were to be baptized were taken into the baptistry, a building especially designed for baptism. The bishop consecrated the waters of the font with a long prayer which recounted the types of baptisms. The candidates disrobed , they were anointed with oil, and then, after renouncing the devil and all his works and confessing their faith in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, they were immersed in the baptismal font. After the baptismal washing each one was anointed with chrism by the bishop and received the laying on of hands. The newly baptized were then clothed in white and led into the church to join with the congregation to celebrate the Easter Eucharist.
    If baptism by pouring was normal in the second century, how are we to explain that by the third and surely the fourth century immersion became the preferred mode? Once again, we would want to call to mind what was said about the desire of the late Classical Period to develop impressive Christian mysteries. When Christians began to see in baptism a dramatization of the death and resurrection of Christ, and began more and more to celebrate baptism at Easter, then the symbolic representation of the burial and resurrection became increasingly important . In this setting the dramatization of the burial and resurrection came to overshadow the sign of washing. It was the desire of the Church to make baptism a splendid Christian mystery which made immersion the general mode of baptism by the end of the fourth century. Immersion held sway for the next six to eight centuries." Hughs Oliphant Olds

    It's interesting to observe how the candidates "disrobed" during the baptismal ceremony. Many of the early paintings or engravings of the early immersions show them standing in the pool totally nude . However, the earliest, and some of the earliest depictions of Christ's baptism show him standing next to the Jordon or in a shallow part of the Jordon with John the Baptist pouring water on his head.
     
  13. Smoky

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    Coersion of any religious beliefs from one church or denomination onto another is one hundred percent dead wrong and should be condemned in the strongest possible way!
     
  14. Yelsew

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    Smokeater,
    Your opening post though interesting, is but speculation at best.
     
  15. Smoky

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    There is a lot of speculation in it for sure, but doesn't it make sense? Jesus didn't need to submit to John's baptism for repentance. He was perfect and needed no repentance! John never would have done it if he hadn't been persuaded that it was to "fulfill all righteousness". John also stated: John 1:31

    "I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel ."
    Then why would Jusus mention his baptism when he was asked by what authority he had to preach and teach at the temple? It wouldn't make any sense unless you understood his baptism's real meaning as an annointing. John the Baptist was rather a heretic himself, being both prophet and priest. He was a wild man and confined his ministry to the wilderness and there was some question as to whether he would have the authority to annoint someone to the priesthood. When the Lord was able to get the temple authorities to acknowledge the authenticity of John's baptism, then there was no question about his annointing to the priesthood being authentic! There is no speculation at all about the Lord being out great High Priest, that's all through the book of Hebrews. Hewbrews calls other ceremonial rites using water "baptisms". Notice HEB 9:10-14:

    10 but deal only with food and drink and various baptisms , regulations for the body imposed until the time comes to set things right.
    11 But when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation), 12 he entered once for all into the Holy Place, not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood , thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls, with the sprinkling of the ashes of a heifer, sanctifies those who have been defiled so that their flesh is purified, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to worship the living God! The word "baptize" had evolved to mean "purification" among the greek jews to whom the various letters of the New Testament was written

    [ May 10, 2003, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Smoke Eater ]
     
  16. Smoky

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  17. RaptureReady

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  18. Smoky

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    One of my sites listed several other sites that gives the case for immersion. Please read all the information you can get.
     

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