Jew is a religous term only

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Martin Luther, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Terminology is important, what do most people presume when they read jew and gentile? Most people think Israelite and non-Israelite but the truth is it means law-follower and heathen. The term jew can best be explained like this. Since the time of Moses, men were redeemed not by their strict adherence to the law but through the circumcision of their heart, by faith in the Christ (Hebrews 10:26)(I Peter 4:6). Good men would by obedience follow the law but it was the condition of their heart that saved them. No O.T. saint ever received the forgiveness of a single sin through animal sacrifices (Hebrews 10:6-12) God makes it very clear in the O.T. that any man of any race can be saved through obedience (Isaiah 56:6-7).


    Corrupt men looked at the law more legalistically. They thought as long as they obeyed the letter of the law what was in their heart didn't not really matter. It was only a matter of time before these wicked men began to change the law through their positions of power. They claimed they had the ability to see hidden truths that the regular follower could not see. As Israel's spirituality began to decline they soon went into bondage and God allowed them to be conquered, this is where we begin to see the term jew used. (Esther 8:17)


    The key here is that the term is a reference to the religion of those following the law for salvation. Where things get sticky is that there were undoubtedly those who followed the pure law and those who followed the corrupted Pharisee version. As an Israelite Christ never called Himself a jew but he was one in the sense that he practiced the original pure law. Those following the law (A people not of one race but many seeking salvation through the law) had to make a choice, assume Christ was the promised Messiah or look for another. When we read that Christ came unto His own, it is a reference to those who claimed to be looking for Messiah, those attempting to follow the law. Remember that the northern kingdom known as “Israel’ never returned to the land called Israel. They were not there to see Christ, nor did they have the ability to reject Him. Christ came first to those looking for Him, the jews not the Israelites. (Men like the Edomite King Herod)


    God has always been building a spiritual nation of men and women circumcised in the heart (I Peter 2:9). The N.T. is comprised of books written to two groups of people, the jews, those following the law for salvation (not necessarily Israelites); those who had to be shown that Christ fulfilled the law and that salvation was of faith and not in the works of the law, specifically a condition of one’s heart. And the gentiles (another term for heathen), those who never practiced the law for salvation; these may have included physical Israelites.


    Paul explained thoroughly that salvation was a matter of faith and that God would give salvation to all men through Christ if they became obedient to Christ. Those who chose to reject Christ continued to practice the law. The Christ rejecting law followers stayed in Jerusalem right up to the end in 70 A.D. They fought for a physical kingdom and died never trusting in the Messiah. The religion of the jews became Christ rejection. For a Christian to ignorantly call the jews Gods chosen people, would be like saying that the descendants of the Christ rejecting law followers are Gods chosen people. It is ignorant from a religious perspective and ignorant from a physical perspective. At the very very best, there may be some who still call themselves jews who may possess some blood from either Benjamin, Judah or Levi. The northern ten tribes turned to pagan gods and never returned to Israel. Israel/Church will not be a spiritual nation until Christ returns. Upon His return he will marry the bride, the church, Israel, perfected through His blood and made partakers of the adoption through Abraham (Galatians 3:7)


    Romans 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect.
     
  2. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Shoot, I forgot an i in the title.
     
  3. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: I have always believed that God chose to bestow an inheritance of land and blessing upon Abraham and his descendants. Were not the children of Abraham, even those not of spiritual Israel, the rightful heirs of the promise chosen by God to receive it?

    To be chosen by God is not paramount to be part of the redeemed IMO. God chose them for various reasons, but choose them He did. I still believe the Jews today, even those still following the law and not part of the spiritual seed, are chosen by God. Maybe what I am thinking is, 'chosen to or for what' is the question? Can they not be God’s chosen people yet many of them are obviously going to be lost? Could He not have, as part of His covenant, bestowed great blessings withheld from others, and as such ‘chosen’ by God to receive them in spite of what their end fate is? Could He not chose them as a people, by giving them opportunity and privileges far exceeding those granted to the Gentiles, and as such, saved in the end or not, properly denoted as His chosen people?
     
  4. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Did you read what I wrote? Jews are not Israelites. No one knows for sure who the Israelites are. Many well read historians think white Europeans are the northern ten tribes. The whole point is that Jew does not equal Israelite. The entire N.T. when referring to a jew is referring to those who follow the law, period. All saved Israelites are added to the church/bride. All saved men are redeemed through Christ, through Abraham. They are his seed through the spirit, not through flesh. Tell me, how will God purify and redeem Israel? Think He might do it through the second covenant?
     
  5. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: The Noah Webster dictionary simply says that an Israelite is a “descendant of Israel or Jacob: a Jew.”

    Are you saying he is wrong? Just asking, not debating at this moment.
     
  6. webdog

    webdog
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    The Apostle Paul says they are. Should we listen to him (and his books were inspired by the Holy Spirit) or you?
     
  7. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Yes he is wrong.
     
  8. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Chapter and verse please.
     
  9. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    ML, again I am not debating, I am asking. There is a whole lot I can learn about this matter I am certain.

    Could not there be at least the senses the word Israelite is used? Could there not be on sense which is consistent with Webster, and another sense which he did not address being true as well, i.e., an Israelite could be seen as one of the tribes of Israel as opposed to the tribe of Judah or others not included, and yet another in a spiritual sense as being a spiritual Israelite?
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
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    Act 10:28 And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
    Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Rom 2:9
    There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
    Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
    Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him.
    Gal 2:14 But when I saw that their conduct was not in step with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas before them all, "If you, though a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you force the Gentiles to live like Jews?"
    Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
    Col 3:11 Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

    Do you believe in every instance Paul is referring to the Greek and Gentiles as a religious systems and not peoples? It's a huge jump in logic to claim that Jews are only a religious system, and Greek and Gentile are not.
     
  11. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    No, even the great Martin Luther got this wrong. History is clear, the bible is clear. The error is that everyone has assumed something of which there is no proof. The Christ rejecting law followers have been placed back in Israel, soon they will have their "messiah".
     
  12. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    HP: Have patience with me. Can you explain to me again what we have assumed that is true? Are you saying that the word Israelite cannot be used in any other sense but what you believe it to mean? If so, can you give us a precise definition you believe is true?


    HP: I am still not understanding. There were law followers that rejected Christ and there were followers of the law that accepted Him. Some had a right attitude of repentance and obedience from the heart, and others merely as outward works. Some today in Israel obviously had it wrong, but there are some there today that have it right, are there not? Some might have a wrong messiah on the way, but others believe Christ is there Messiah, again, would you not agree?

    I guess after reading your first post several times I am still in the dark as to the real point you are trying to make. Forgive me, I am honestly trying and not trying to be difficult and I certainly am not trying just yet to debate anything. I desire to understand your point(s) correctly as you see them.
     
  13. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    Greek and Gentile are both references to heathen peoples, Paul uses the terms interchangeably. Also, those verses do not prove your point at all.
     
  14. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    We have assumed that jew means Israelite. An Israelite can decide to be a jew the same way an Anglo-Saxon CAN be a Christian. Now you would not call all Christians Anglo-Saxons, but this is what we have done with the jews.

    If a jew accepted Christ then they were simply added to the church. Paul is an example of an Israelite who WAS a jew who became obedient to Messiah. I'm sure there were many jews who followed Christ.



    My point is that everyone assumes the jews at the time of Christ were Israelites, they were not. They were a mix of all peoples seeking God through the law. The majority of these people rejected Messiah. Today modern Christendom presumes that their offspring are the Israelites. They are not, they still hate the Messiah, Christ rejection is still the corner stone of Judaism. No one knows who the real Israelites are. God will save 144,000 of each tribe but they are still added to the church. All men who accept Christ are made apart of true Israel. Spiritual Israel and the church are one in the same, they are both given an everlasting heritage, they are both married to Christ. The modern Christians are supporting the seed of Satan.
     
  15. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    ML, thank you for your patience. Can you simply define what is an Israelite? If you have, could you simply restate it for clarification one more time?
     
  16. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    An Israelite is a blood descendant of Israel/Jacob. He had twelve sons which became the twelve tribes.
     
  17. Heavenly Pilgrim

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    Can you in the same manner define for us who is a Jew?
     
  18. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
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    A man of any race who decides to follow O.T. law for the purpose of salvation.
     
  19. webdog

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    Wrong...there were gentile's who were "God fearers" who were not jewish. You can't just make up your own definitions, rather let context dictate how the phrase is used.
     
  20. Martin Luther

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    The term gentile meant they did not follow the law for salvation, they were by jew accounts heathen. Many gentiles became followers of Christ and became spiritual Israelites. Again, they were called gentile because of their relationship to the O.T. law. Paul uses Greek and gentile in the EXACT same way. I'd find an example but I don't have time.
     

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