Jews Don't Need Conversion -- The "gospel" according to EWTN!!

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by CatholicConvert, Aug 18, 2003.

  1. CatholicConvert

    CatholicConvert
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    A Jew wrote in to EWTN and said:

    The answer, from EWTN:

    Would that you were given the grace to recognize Jesus as the Son of God and could join the Catholic Church. But if you honestly cannot accept Him as such, by living a life as a devout Jew, you can reach heaven. This is what the Catholic Church teaches. AND Mel Gibson's movie, "The Passion" does NOT contradict this.

    Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

    Note from Novus Ordo Watch: Ah yes, this is what is today considered to be "top-notch, rock-solid Catholic orthodoxy." With "conservatives" like these, who needs liberals?! If you can be saved as a Jew, why did Christ even bother to come?!!
    Here is the Catholic teaching presented in no uncertain terms by the infallible and dogmatic Council of Florence, ratified by Pope Eugene IV:

    "[A]ll those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the Church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church." [Read all of the Council of Florence here]

    Amen!


    Now....according to Carson Weber, our resident student of theology at Franciscan University in Steubenville, the above statement from the Council of Florence is binding upon me as a Catholic and I am under obligation to believe everything that was written by Pope Eugene IV.

    So WHO, pray tell us, are the heretics and WHO are the schismatics regarding the issue of disobedience to a concicular decision? :eek: :eek:

    So I, as a conscientious Catholic, cannot disobey or disbelieve Pope John Paul II's teachings regarding the teachings of Vatican II and the idea that Muslims "worship the same god" (BALONEY!!!)

    BUT.....

    Carson and his Novus Ordo buds are allowed to disregard the teachings of the Council of Florence in favor of a "kinder and gentler Catholicism" which will not offend anyone in the interests of false eccumenicism.

    Sorry. I ain't buying it!!

    *snif snif*

    Methinks I smell a tad of hypocrisy laying around here somewhere.

    Okay, Carson. Yer turn at the plate, my man. Defend the practice of the Novus Ordo in ignoring previous concicular decisions. As far as I am concerned, since there were no declarations of infallibility with Vatican II, I see nothing binding on me IF it contradicts earlier councils.

    Brother Ed -- from the headquarters of the SSPX - Eastern Rite High Command Center and 10 cent Wash and Dry Center.
     
  2. Briguy

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    Ed, I love your honesty [​IMG] and sense of humor. [​IMG]

    Ed, Isn't the official Catholic church position on salvation something like: If a non- Catholic person is living upright before God, whether aware or unaware, that he can obtain heaven based on the fact that if he were in a different situation he would be baptized and be obedient to the Catholic church and her teachings. So, the Jewish man who wrote the letter can't help being born into a Jewish family with the deep tradtions that it has and so he is not accountable, like those raised in Catholic families. Is that close or am I off in left field some where [​IMG]

    Ed, I hope things are well with you. How is your wife? I recall her being ill a while back. (If I remembered wrong please disregard that last thing)

    Take care,
    In Christ,
    Brian
     
  3. Doubting Thomas

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    Brother Ed,

    That's a good post, my friend--why did Christ come at all if any old religion would do?

    I would suggest you go back to your Byzantine roots and join the Holy Orthodox Church, but I've read some equally problematic quotes today from certain (by no means all) Eastern Patriarchs which expressed that same heretical syncretist nonsense. :rolleyes:

    Anyway, God Bless and keep up the fight! [​IMG]
     
  4. CatholicConvert

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    Interesting posts from both of you.

    Brian -- I understand your point, but in this day and age, when just about EVERYONE has heard the name of Jesus the Christ, AND His claims (which the Jew in the aforesaid posting is obviously well aware of), there is NO PLEADING TO IGNORANCE. To plead to ignorance, well....ya gotta be ignorant, and this guy obviously isn't!! :eek: He is what the majority of people on this planet are -- rebellious, self-centered, and of his own ideas on what "god" should be like.

    Sorry, that doesn't wash.

    My wife (thank you for asking) remains very sick. The biggest problem for me has been how to juggle all the responsibilities of a household, job, kids, and external activities and not lose my mind. So far, I am only half baked and half crazy. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Doubting Thomas --

    Must say that your name makes me interested in where you are coming from. As for your response, I DO belong to a Byzantine Orthodox Church in communion with Rome. Our eklessiastical praxis is identical with that of the Church in the East circa the 6th century. If you go to one of our Liturgies, you will hear hymns written between the sixth to eighth century and you will see liturgical practices which are common to all Orthodox parishes. The only difference is that we recognize the authority of the pope of Rome, even if he is a blithering idiot administratively!! (I'm not saying necessarily that JPII is -- but there have been some lulus in that chair!!). You will see us do a number of things which the Roman rite has abandoned in favor of "modernity" such as paedocommunion, baptism of infants by immersion, hymns sung accapella, and ancient ligurgical rubrics used.

    Many people I have read state that they are seeking the "church of the Early Fathers" or the "apostolic church".

    We have it. [​IMG]

    And ultimately, we Byzantines believe that we will be the catalystic agency for the reunion of East and West, Orthodox and Rome, into one Church which existed before the Great Schism of 1054.

    Cordially in Christ through the Blessed Theotokos,

    Brother Ed
     
  5. LaRae

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    Hey Brother Ed you need to go check out Steve Ray's forum...they have a big discussion going on about this topic....alot of input.


    LaRae
     
  6. CatholicConvert

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    La Rae --

    Is that the thread on "Jews do not need to convert" ??

    If so, I just posted a reply which is sure to get some rather WARM responses.

    You know, one of the things about wearing my feelings and opinions on my sleeve is that I constantly have the feeling of being a target and everyone else is a B-29.

    Ah, well....my choice.
     
  7. yod

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    How cruel must God be to kill His only Son if there is another way?

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Briguy

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    Hi Ed, So sorry to here that your wife is still ill. Is there anything in specific you need prayer for in regards to her health? os should I and others just pray for her to recover and you to have the strength and peace to endure this struggle. Let us know [​IMG]

    Yod, The Catholic position would say that the person in question IS getting to Heaven because of the Son. The person doesn't know they are getting to heaven because of the Son but the Father and the Son know. Remember, born into a Catholic family God knows this person would be faithful and obedient. Ed, please correct me if I am understating that particular doctrine.

    Peace to you ED! [​IMG]

    In Christian Love,
    Brian
     
  9. LaRae

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    Yep that's THE thread....

    I just read your post over there (and Carson's), you aren't alone in your feelings....there's quite a few more traditional Catholics posting. I occasionally join in but it does get very tiring fighting with anti-tradtional Catholics.


    LaRae

    (will pray for your family)
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Jesus alone "IS" the way the truth and the life - whether you are a Jew like Jesus - or not.

    Jesus "does not change" - He is the SAME yesterday today and forever - OT and NT (Heb 13).

    Jesus is - and has always been - the only way to the Father. There has NEVER been "Another Gospel" - not in the OT and not in the Nt.

    As Paul said to Timothy in 2Tim 3 - the scripture of Timothy's childhood - were THEN fully capable of leading him to salvation.

    Neither Moses - nor Christ - ever said "IF you manage to live long enough - and can make it past the time of the cross - THEN you will be saved, forgiven, born again".

    Points to ponder.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. GraceSaves

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    A new reply from EWTN:

    Dear Eric,

    My answer to Jacob was correct, but has raised questions for a number of people due to its brevity and what it did not say. As I said, would that Jacob (and other Jews) be given the grace to recognize Jesus as the Son of God and could join the Catholic Church.

    We as Catholics believe that no one can reach heaven except through the one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ as manifested through His Church. "Outside the Church there is no salvation."

    However, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states (847) "This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church". The Catechism goes on to quote Lumen Gentium (14): "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience-those too may achieve eternal salvation."

    This means that we believe that those who honestly (the key word here is "honestly") cannot see Jesus by means of the light of faith, can still be saved by that same Jesus Christ, even though they do not realize it--providing that the seek God and try in their actions to do his will, etc. as above.

    Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.
     
  12. CatholicConvert

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    Grant --

    Here's the problem as I see it. A Jew "hears" the Gospel message. He is told that he needs to repent of His sin and enter the covenantal kingdom through Jesus the Christ (or "accept Jesus" or "be baptized into Christ" or whatever).

    And he ponders this and says "NO."

    Now just how far does this idea of "through no fault of his own" go anyway?

    One gets the feeling from the Catholic hierarchy and their pronouncements that "through no fault of their own" is more like "well, if they don't like it, they don't really have to repent and come into the Church."

    Now again, that is my take on it, reading between the lines, but I never knew that truth and what we do with truth was based on subjectivist feelings.

    That's just my .02 worth.
     
  13. trying2understand

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    (emphasis mine)

    Isn't it ironic that you are judging the truth of what the Church is saying here, by your own subjectivist feelings? :D
     
  14. thessalonian

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    I didn't hear the EWTN show and haven't read all of this thread. I do not like when Catholics tell non-catholics that to just be a good Jew or Budhist or whaterver you are. But I think the bottom line is that we cannot judge whether one is damned because he does not join the Church. It has to be a willful act to reject the teachings. Only God can judge the hearts of men.

    Further, we as Catholics have to make sure that it is not our words and deeds that hinder them rather than help them as many Catholics in the past have acted in ways that provide stumbling blocks for Protestants to enter the Church. Thus we cannot judge those who are incapable of really hearing what we have to say because of the biases in them due to centuries of bad behavior on both sides of the fence.

    Blessings
     
  15. trying2understand

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    Perhaps this will help, Ed. [​IMG]

    http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
     
  16. CatholicConvert

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    I went to the link.

    Again, it begs the point. I am not saying that there is no such thing as "invincible ignorance", but look at the difference 100+ years has made. Are there any people left yet who have not heard of Christ Jesus the Lord? I doubt it sincerely.

    I agree that there are those who do not really "know" Who He is because they have not been given full knowledge, and I also consent to the fact that Scripture teaches that those who keep the law of God, by the mysterious working of the Holy Spirit within, without knowing PRECISELY of God, will be seen as lawkeepers by God on the Judgement Day (Romans 2: 13 -16).

    My point is to those who have heard and apparently have a serious working knowledge of the Gospel as did this Jew mentioned in the first post. He was NOT asking "well, who is this Jesus you speak of?" He was asking if he really needed to be converted to be saved, which implies that someone told him of Jesus and of salvation and of the need to convert.

    Big difference my friend. It seems (although I cannot know another man's heart) that he has more than a passing knowledge of the name of our Lord and His claims.

    And the question he asked was a direct question and deserved a direct response, FROM THE BIBLE!!

    Ac 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

    11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

    12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


    This is St. Peter's response to the Jewish leaders who had arrested them for preaching in the name of Jesus the Christ. I think it is concise and to the point.

    You see, this is another problem with Catholic apologetics -- lack of use of Scripture. I cannot tell you the number of times I used to engage Catholics as a Fundamentalist and they would give me some answer which was either sappy, stupid, or unintelligible rather than a Biblical answer. You and I know there are Biblical answers (some of them quite detailed in exegesis) for all Catholic teachings. But it seems Scripture is rarely used. Human reasoning is more likely to be brought forth.

    Sorry....call me mean if you wish, but I think the Church needs to make it clear to non Christians that Jesus is the only Savior, the only True God, and all else is falsity and paganism. Such a clear and unambiguous statement will end once and for all worship with pagans, sharing of "eccumenical services" and most like will bring in persecution of Christians. We will see how "tolerant" non Christian religions really are when we stand clearly for Him and His truth.

    Oh, and by the way, Jesus Himself told us that if we live godly lives, we may EXPECT PERSECUTION.

    Cordially in Christ through the Theotokos,

    Brother Ed
     

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