Jn3:16...says-

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Iconoclast, Aug 20, 2013.

  1. Iconoclast

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  2. preacher4truth

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    Excellent video, thanks!

    Interestingly this truth exposes a pastor who a few weeks ago said that all anyone has to do is believe, repentance is not necessary, and John 3:16 is the panacea, and that there is absolutely no evidence of being born again, and to top it off, they can live however they want because 'Jesus can't lie' (insert Romans 10:13 here).
     
  3. Winman

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    He's correct, John 3:16 does not prove universal ability. It also does not prove universal inability either.

    He's simply blowing smoke. Just because John 3:16 doesn't prove universal ability (because it doesn't even attempt to address that subject) does not mean it supports total inability. The verse does not address ability or inability at all.

    Only simple people are fooled by arguments like this.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    It is nice to hear that when the word of God is opened up accurately.It gives us direction and correction and exposes where we have strayed away from truth.
    Having received correction we can better present the truth of God.:wavey::thumbs:
     
  5. Iconoclast

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    Winman


    :thumbsup:Glad you enjoyed the video:wavey:
     
  6. Winman

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    I didn't enjoy it, that video was meaningless. You probably think he really said something.
     
  7. Iconoclast

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    Oh....sorry you could not grasp actual teaching of scripture.Okay well maybe someday:thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  8. Winman

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    I grasped it, it was a false form of argument.

    Mr. White argued that Jhn 3:16 does not teach universal ability. He is correct, this verse does not teach universal ability. It doesn't address the subject of ability.

    The false form of argument is to subtly imply this means the scriptures teach Total Inability. That is false. If you believe that, then he snookered you with a false form of argument.

    Now, there are verses that address ability versus inability, and John 6:44 is indeed one of those verses as he correctly said.

    Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    This verse clearly addresses ability. It says no man can come to Jesus except the Father draws him.

    But what does that mean? What does Jesus mean by "draw"? Is this some supernatural regeneration? How is a man drawn? The answer is shown in the very next verse.

    Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    Does Jesus say here in verse 45 that every man who has been supernaturally regenerated shall come to him? NO. Jesus says those that have been taught, those that have heard, and those who have learned shall come to him.

    So what was preventing men from coming to Jesus? Was it a lack of regeneration? NO, it was lack of knowledge. No man is born with a knowledge of Jesus, therefore no man can naturally believe on Jesus. A man must be taught about Jesus before he can possibly come to and believe on him. Paul perfectly explains this in Romans 10:14;

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    There is no other verse that so directly addresses ability as Romans 10:14. Here Paul directly asks, "and how shall they believe in him?". That is a direct question asking HOW a person can believe in Jesus. Does Paul then ask how shall they believe in him unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, and Paul never says that anywhere in scripture. Paul simply implies they must HEAR of Jesus to be enabled to believe.

    But the Calvinist will object and say an unregenerate man has no ability to hear. Paul answers that too, he then asks, "and HOW shall they hear?". Does Paul then ask how shall they hear unless they have been supernaturally regenerated? NO, and Paul never says that anywhere in scripture. He simply implies that a preacher must be sent to preach the gospel, and this is all that is necessary for a man to be enabled to hear.

    So, Mr. White was correct about John 3:16 not addressing ability, but this does not prove the doctrines of Calvinism correct, and neither does John 6:44. What men need to have the ability to believe is not supernatural regeneration, they need a preacher to come and preach the gospel to them. And if that person will listen to the preaching of God's word and learn from it, he will be enabled to come to Jesus Christ in faith.

    Maybe someday you will understand this.
     
    #8 Winman, Aug 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 21, 2013
  9. Alive in Christ

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    ........And Gods scriptural truth remains...


    The who soever wills will be saved, and the whosoever wonts will be lost.

    Glory to God!

    (see Deutronamy 30, 15)...and multitudes of scripture confirm.
     
    #9 Alive in Christ, Aug 23, 2013
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  10. convicted1

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  11. Alive in Christ

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    Posted to Winman by Iconoclast...


    What a typical responce from this brother. :tonofbricks:
     
    #11 Alive in Christ, Aug 23, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 23, 2013
  12. preacher4truth

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    So says the one who has 'Deutronamy' in his bible (along with his many other theological problems). :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
     
  13. Alive in Christ

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    Oh great.

    Now they have let the 3rd graders out.
     
    #13 Alive in Christ, Aug 23, 2013
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  14. Squire Robertsson

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    Beware of

    posts like:

    What a typical responce from this brother.

    Please keep such observations to PMs not this forum.
     
    #14 Squire Robertsson, Aug 23, 2013
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  15. Winman

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    Mr. White was also correct that Romans 8 addresses ability;

    Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
    8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

    These two verses absolutely address ability. Verse 7 says the carnal mind cannot be subject to the law of God, and verse 8 says that they "that are in the flesh" cannot please God.

    Do these verses teach that a unregenerate man does not have the ability to have faith? That is possible, and if so, the doctrine of Total Inability is true.

    But can these verses be understood another way? Yes, these verses can be understood simply to be saying that while a man makes the carnal mind his supreme focus and desire he cannot be subject to the laws of God, and while he chooses to be "in the flesh" he cannot please God.

    This would be like saying that while a married man stares at a another young girl in a bikini he cannot please his wife. Now this is true, but does this mean the man cannot look away and please his wife? NO.

    So, Romans 8:7-8 could possibly be understood from this perspective. How do we know which perspective is correct? By studying other scripture that addresses this subject.

    For example, is there scripture that shows a man without the Spirit of God can believe in God? Yes. Cornelius is an example of a man who did not have the Holy Spirit, yet he feared God, prayed always, and did many good works. Yet we know he was not saved and did not have the Holy Spirit until Peter came and preached to him.

    Many statements of Paul support that a man without the Holy Spirit has the ability to believe.

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question here demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel, therefore an unregenerate man has the ability to believe.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Paul's question here shows he believed a person receives the Holy Spirit as a result of believing on Jesus, therefore an unregenerate man can believe.

    Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Peter here said a person must repent and believe in Jesus (for only believers are baptized), and afterward they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore an unregenerate man can believe.

    There are many more scriptures besides these that show unregenerate men have the ability to believe, therefore Romans 8:7-8 cannot be teaching that unregenerate men are unable to believe.

    What Romans 8:7-8 is properly teaching is that while a man fixates on the carnal mind and fleshly desires that he cannot be subject to the law of God and cannot please God. These verses are not teaching that a man is unable to repent of this carnality and turn in faith to God, and then he will receive the Holy Spirit.

    Romans 8 does not prove Total Inability.
     
    #15 Winman, Aug 23, 2013
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  16. agedman

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    Winman,

    You seem to assume that because a person can intellectualize what they hear and therefore they automatically have the ability to actually believe.

    Perhaps you need to recall what Mosses states about the condition of the folks who had first hand relationship with God - for forty years.

    Here it is:

    And Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh and all his servants and all his land; 3the great trials which your eyes have seen, those great signs and wonders.
    Note: Mosses declares that the Jews were first hand, eye-witness to all that the Lord did - huge trials, authoritative signs and wonders - but what was the response Mosses states of the folks?

    4“Yet to this day the LORD has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. 5“I have led you forty years in the wilderness; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot. 6“You have not eaten bread, nor have you drunk wine or strong drink, in order that you might know that I am the LORD your God.

    So, it is the LORD that gives the ability.

    It is NOT innate in EVERY person.

    That you desire it to be and show Scriptures that states that IF one does hear they can believe does not support the ABILITY to hear and see if the God of Heaven doesn't enable that person have such ability.

    The Scriptures you posted shows that "the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."

    The thinking that you have posted is NOT Scripturally supported, nor are folks born with some innate ability in which every person holds self volition to activate belief at will.

    There is no Scriptures that support that thinking. A person cannot of self willed volition - without the direct and purposed work of God through the Scriptures and Holy Spirit - believe. They may intellectualize and even conjure up some self subscribed hope - but be lost. Unless God does the work of opening the ears and eyes, the understanding of the heart remains shut up and chained to unrighteousness.
     
  17. Winman

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    That is a nonsensical interpretation. Why would God be angry at anyone for not having an ability he had not given them?

    Here is what Adam Clarke said on this verse;

    So, you misinterpret this scripture. These folks had no reason not to have an understanding and believing heart. They had seen all of God's miracles in Egypt and yet they were full of unbelief. The fault was not God's, it was theirs alone.

    Commentator Thomas Coke is even more clear;

    Again, God's frustration with his people is because he had given them every evidence to be believing, but through their stubbornness and obstinancy they refused to see and believe.

    It is similar to when you tell someone something repeatedly, but they refuse to listen. When something bad happens because they refused to listen, you say "I told you so."

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHBB3WWhxr4
     
    #17 Winman, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2013

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