Jo 5:24-29 implies 2 ways to God's Grace: election & works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Alfred Persson., Jan 25, 2012.

  1. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    There are two access points to God's Grace:
    1)via election (Eph 1:4ff; 2:7ff; Rom 8:28ff)
    2)via a judgment according to works (John 5:28f; Mat 25:33-40; Rom. 2:6-11; Rev 20:11-15).

    5 ...the righteous judgment of God,
    6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
    7 eternal life
    to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
    9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
    10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
    11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom 2:5-11 NKJ)

    We see both access points to God's Mercy in John 5:24-29. The church (elect) saved by grace not works---have passed over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment"; therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

    24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
    25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
    27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
    (Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

    The judgment according to works is a "low bar" the non elect hurdle to indicate they love light, not darkness...so even if they are ignorant of Christ's relationship to light (cp Mat 25:34-40; John 3:19-21), God can then save them by undeserved grace just as He did the elect, and therefore God is innocent of the charge of partiality. All are saved by the same undeserved grace, the same vigorous action that saved the elect, was also expended to save the non elect, if they did the equivalent of those who believed in Christ...acted in such a manner as to indicate love of light.


    In other words, the NT organizes humanity under three categories, the righteous, the unrighteous and the intermediate or middling. They are average sinners of uncertain loyalty. Generally speaking, these three classes were carried forward into the NT from the Judaism of the time. Paul's instructor (Ac 22:3) Gamaliel presided over the school or "Beth" Shammai around 30 A.D. our LORD Jesus while counseling a scribe called some oral tradition relevant "treasure":

    52 Then He said to them, "Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old." (Mat 13:52 NKJ)

    The House of Shammai say, “[There will be] three groups on the Day of Judgment [when the dead will rise]: one comprised of the thoroughly righteous, one comprised of the thoroughly wicked, and one of middling [people].
    [C] “The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for eternal life.
    [D] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for Gehenna,
    [E] “as it is written [Dan. 12:2]: ‘And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to eternal life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.’
    [F] “Middling [people] go down to Gehenna [17a], scream [in prayer], and rise [again],
    [G] “as it is written [Zech. 13:9]: ‘And I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver and test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, and I will answer them.’
    [H] “And, concerning this group, Hannah said [1 Sam. 2:6]: ‘The Lord kills and brings to life. He brings down to Sheol and raises up.’ ”- Neusner, Jacob: The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary. Peabody, MA : Hendrickson Publishers, 2011, S. 6



    This existence of the intermediate group saved by grace via works destroys the logical corollary where unconditional election to life for some results in the non-elect receiving positive or negative reprobation, BECAUSE then that is a false dilemma; It does not follow those not selected unto life then must die, for there is a way to God's Grace via a judgment of works.


    In other words, the three groups manifest in John 5:24, 28-29 show there are two ways to God's Grace by which men are saved:

    The church (elect) saved by grace, not works, pass over from death into life in verse 24 "and shall not come into judgment", therefore verses 28-29 are NOT about the church, they are about the intermediate and wicked, who are judged according to their works.

    24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
    25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
    27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.(Joh 5:24-29 NKJ)

    Works save no one. If a person's works indicate love light not darkness; then God can save them by grace, write their names in the book of life because God is merciful, not because their works merited it:

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.(Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

    The church is not being judged in Rev 20:11-15, its a resurrection of the dead who failed to believe in this life. The church was already raised up in the first resurrection/rapture long ago (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; John 5:24; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16 and served with Christ in His Kingdom as kings and priests. This is a judgment (1000 years later) according to works as it plainly says, and if their works prove they love light, God saves them by grace.

    That is why the book of life is open, to see if their names should be added to those "written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." (Rev 17:8 NKJ) Names can be added (Mal 3;16-18) or deleted (Rev 3:5-6) from the book of life.

    Because apart from incarnate God the Eternal Son---Jesus Christ, who analogically sold all He owned as infinite God in Heaven to serve the Father (Phil 2:6ff), no human can do enough works to merit God's kingdom, therefore all are saved by grace.

    WHAT is the practical effect of all this?

    Billions now living may never die; and there is hope the vast majority of dead humankind will rise up into life, only the Devil's children and those who sinned eternally in this life, will be eternally punished.

    31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
    32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Mat 12:31-32 NKJ)


    Billions will be saved:

    5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
    6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. (Gen 15:5-6 NKJ)

    Behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations… saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!... "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.[/b] (Rev 7:9-14 NKJ)

    Chronologically speaking, the "Great Tribulation" is a short period of time (Dan 12:1 lxx; Mat 24:15-31; Mar 13:14-27), if we cannot number these how much less can be number all the saved from every generation of mankind?
     
    #1 Alfred Persson., Jan 25, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 25, 2012
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler
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    Here ya go, posting in the Baptist-only forum again. Did you not understand DHK's explanation why you should post in the Other Christian Denominations section?
     
  3. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    I missed that. I don't see a delete so I can move it. Perhaps the moderator will move it over.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    What a complete confused mess! First, Romans 2:6-8 is in a context of the hypocritical lost people not saved people.

    Second, there are not two ways to heaven (Jn. 14:6) and never was two ways to heaven and never will be two ways to heaven (Mt. 7:13-14). The law was never given to obtain eternal life (Gal. 3:21). The law was given to reveal the knowledge of sin to sinners.
     
  5. Alfred Persson.

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    If a judgment according to works doesn't exist, why talk about in the NT:

    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:28-29 NKJ)

    Those who have done good, i.e., done good works rise to a resurrection of life.

    Only through Christ can these be saved "for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Act 4:12 NKJ)

    But Christ plainly said "those who have done good, to the resurrection of life."

    As it is Christ who said this, I believe it. So should you.

    Therefore Christ refutes your claim a judgment according to works doesn't exist. It certainly does, for the non elect.

    The point of my posts is, this doesn't contradict salvation by grace alone and not by works for the church, because Christ was NOT talking about the church. He was talking about the "dead," NOT those who aren't judged because they have passed over into life:

    24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Joh 5:24 NKJ)

    Therefore the judgment in John 5:28-29 isn't happening to the church who believed in Christ in this life and are not judged.


    Same thing in Revelation 20:11ff, that is a resurrection of the dead, not of "the living"; the church was already saved by grace.

    That's why this is a judgment according to works:

    11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:11-15 NKJ)

    The church was already with Christ as Kings and Priests BEFORE this Judgment, a thousand years earlier they were resurrected and raptured along with the martyrs:

    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
    5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)

    Compare:

    (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; Mat 24:29-31; Rev 14:14-16. Hence their salvation wasn't in question on Judgment Day (John 5:24), they were already saved by Grace not works, by Christ.

    These being raised, are the non elect and they too can only be saved by grace through Christ:

    2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. (1Jo 2:2 NKJ)

    They aren't saved by works, they were saved by grace. Reread my opening post for how the judgment of works opened the door to God's grace.
     
  6. billwald

    billwald
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    >What a complete confused mess! First, Romans 2:6-8 is in a context of the hypocritical lost people not saved people.

    Either God or Satan inspires these people to do these good works. Does Satan cause his people to do righteous deed?
     
  7. th1bill

    th1bill
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    LOC,
    This is pure manure! You have completely ignored the single most important rule of contextual understanding in addition to the single most important rule of Hermeneutics, no single nor any group of scripture can be understood without the light of every scripture shinning on it or them.

    And then you attempt to justify your ill conceived position by questioning Godś intent?
     
  8. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    You made a claim, now prove it. Show where I misinterpreted the texts and the relevant texts that contradict the precise point I made.
     
  9. th1bill

    th1bill
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    I´ll need to get back to you, I need to prepare for Sunday.
     
  10. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    No problem, I'll look forward to it.
     
  11. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    Here are some texts showing rescue from Hades, no sense springing them on you later. Take your time. God Bless:

    55 I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit.
    56 You have heard my voice: "Do not hide Your ear From my sighing, from my cry for help."
    57 You drew near on the day I called on You, And said, "Do not fear!"
    58 O Lord, You have pleaded the case for my soul; You have redeemed my life.
    (Lam 3:55-58 NKJ)
    ###

    5 `When the waves of death surrounded me, The floods of ungodliness made me afraid.
    6 The sorrows of Sheol surrounded me; The snares of death confronted me.
    7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, And cried out to my God; He heard my voice from His temple, And my cry entered His ears.
    8 "Then the earth shook and trembled; The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken, Because He was angry.
    9 Smoke went up from His nostrils, And devouring fire from His mouth; Coals were kindled by it.
    10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down With darkness under His feet.
    11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew; And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
    12 He made darkness canopies around Him, Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
    13 From the brightness before Him Coals of fire were kindled.
    14 "The LORD thundered from heaven, And the Most High uttered His voice.
    15 He sent out arrows and scattered them; Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
    16 Then the channels of the sea were seen, The foundations of the world were uncovered, At the rebuke of the LORD, At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.
    17 "He sent from above, He took me, He drew me out of many waters.
    18 He delivered me from my strong enemy, From those who hated me; For they were too strong for me.
    (2Sa 22:5-18 NKJ)

    ###

    "Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! (Job 14:13 NAU)

    ###

    But God will redeem my soul from the power of Sheol, For He will receive me. Selah. (Psa 49:15 NAU)

    ###
    For great is Your mercy toward me, And You have delivered my soul from the depths of Sheol. (Psa 86:13 NKJ)

    ###

    3 The pains of death surrounded me, And the pangs of Sheol laid hold of me; I found trouble and sorrow.
    4 Then I called upon the name of the LORD: "O LORD, I implore You, deliver my soul!"
    5 Gracious is the LORD, and righteous; Yes, our God is merciful.
    6 The LORD preserves the simple; I was brought low, and He saved me. (Psa 116:3-6 NKJ)
    ###

    From the hand of Sheol I do ransom them, From death I redeem them, Where is thy plague, O death? Where thy destruction, O Sheol? Repentance is hid from Mine eyes. (Hos 13:14 YLT)

    That alludes to the resurrection (in John 5:28f; Rev 20:11-15) from Death and Hades which then suffer the "the second death (separation from God) from which there is no resurrection (return), Repentance is hid from Mine eyes.

    13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
    14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
    15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev 20:13-15 NKJ)

    As vs 15 is parenthetical applying to the entire event, and the book of life is opened, it implies some were found written in the book of life.

    ###
    Christ's propitiation (1 John 2:2) covers those in Sheol:

    9 "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King is coming to you; He is just and having salvation, Lowly and riding on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey.
    10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; The battle bow shall be cut off. He shall speak peace to the nations; His dominion shall be`from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.'
    11 "As for you also, Because of the blood of your covenant, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. (Zec 9:9-11 NKJ) (cf. Lu 16:24)

    In context this relevant to Christ:
    Mat 21:5 "Tell the daughter of Zion, `Behold, your King is coming to you, Lowly, and sitting on a donkey, A colt, the foal of a donkey. "

    Prophetic telescoping removes the valley between the first and second advent of our LORD Jesus, clearly the "blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many" (Mar 14:24 NKJ) is the propitiation covering (1 John 2:2) that allows captivity be led captive (Eph 4:8) and gifts be given to men, i.e., the gifts of life.

    The Hebrew word "pit" is used referring to Sheol Hades:

    Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. (Isa 14:15 NKJ)

    The lack of "water" in Sheol is present in Jesus' teachings:

    "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' (Luk 16:24 NKJ)


    That Christ died for those who repent in hades is clearly taught by this verse.

    ###

    Continued next post
     
  12. Alfred Persson.

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    Continued, more texts showing rescue from Hades:


    If rescue from Sheol was unknown, Job wouldn't have seen the analogy to his situation:

    And he said: "I cried out to the LORD because of my affliction, And He answered me. "Out of the belly of Sheol I cried, And You heard my voice. (Jon 2:2 NKJ)


    25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
    26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
    27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
    28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
    29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life
    , and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Joh 5:25-29 NKJ)

    ###


    7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
    8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
    9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
    10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)- (Eph 4:7-10 KJV)

    Compare:
    5 For the waves of Death compassed me. The floods of Belial assailed me.
    6 The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me.
    7 In my distress I called upon the LORD, yea, I called unto my God; and out of His temple He heard my voice, and my cry did enter into His ears.
    8 Then the earth did shake and quake, the foundations of heaven did tremble; they were shaken, because He was wroth.
    9 Smoke arose up in His nostrils, and fire out of His mouth did devour; coals flamed forth from Him.
    10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and thick darkness was under His feet.
    (2Sam 22:5-10 JPS)

    ###
    Christ leaving this realm and to preach to repentant spirits in prison is a like figure to how His preaching now saves us, because we both gave the answer of a good conscience toward God and that saved us, by the resurrection of Christ:


    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
    21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
    22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (1Pe 3:18-22 KJV)


    There is no like figure to us if Christ preached doom, hence the text explicitly teaches repentance in Sheol.


    ###

    For this cause the gospel was preached to spiritually dead mockers who speak evil of believers, that they be judged worthy of Hades for living according to men in the flesh, but once there recall the preaching and repent, and live according to God in the spirit:

    4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
    5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
    6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1Pe 4:4-6 NKJ)

    ###

    A sinning church goer's spirit is saved after physical death, in the day of the Lord Jesus:

    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Co 5:5 KJV)

    ["May be saved" perhaps implies Paul doubted he would repent.]

    ###

    The Parable of the Rich man and Lazarus is consistent with this view. The "rich man" in Hades wasn't eternally lost, he could still see the light of God, therefore he wasn't in the section of hell reserved for the eternally dammed, they wait for judgment Day in darkness: "cast into outer darkness" ; "cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment"; "He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day"; "for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever"; " I am counted with those who go down to the pit…the lowest pit, In darkness, in the depths." (Matthew 8:12; 22:13; 25:30; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, 13; Psalm 88:4-6).

    He is twice identified as a child of Abraham---by his crying out to "father Abraham" and Abraham's responding tenderly "child". (Luke 16:24-25)

    Moreover, in scripture the righteous do not rebel against God's decree and aid His enemies, but those with Abraham wanted to cross over into Hell itself to help Dives (Luke 16:26).

    Furthermore Dives displays godly concern for others (Luke 16: 27-28), which is uncharacteristic of children of the Devil.

    Add to all this Hades is Temporary (Revelation 20:14) and we realize it is "the intermediate place" the dead await their day before the Judge, to learn what their final sentence will be.
     
  13. th1bill

    th1bill
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    I havejust posted a string in Baptist Theolo & Bible Study titled Acts 1:1-5 that will help you to begin to understand why I rebuked you so strongly.
     
  14. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    You misunderstood my post:

    On one forum I am presently about to reply with the reasoning behind my rebuke for his heretical offering that Salvation is offered through faith but can be earned by good works. The saddest point of this is that this gent is not alone in this belief.

    The church is saved by grace, not works, elected before the foundation of the world. Eternal Security of the believer is clearly taught.

    But that is a remnant.

    What of the rest of humanity?

    Grace is offered to those of the "non-elect" who repent, and believe in Jesus will be saved...even if they do that in Hades.

    Only the Devil's children, and those who sinned eternally in this life, suffer eternal punishment.

    You have NEVER heard this view before, it was taught by Christ and His apostles but the church screwed it up as Roman Catholicism took hold.

    Orthodoxy is what God the Eternal Son and His apostles taught in scripture, heresy is what came later.

    I can prove the view I presented above, is Orthodox.

    I'll be waiting for your reasoned response.
     
  15. th1bill

    th1bill
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    That you are not a Baptist of any flavor is so very unimportant when we take into consideration that you can not even be a Christian believing these things. Each of the proof texts you have used to make your case are segmented and used completely out of context. You are one of the few people that has the correct idea thyat Hell is temporary but Iḿ completely lost fr how you ever figured that out, everything else you present is garbage.

    The very idea that you have donned the mantle of a teacher should scare you down to your toe-nails. You are teaching heresy and God will never find that to be cute. You cannot proof-text with the scriptures but rather you must first get rid of that pride you´re demonstratng here, begin to pray and submit your, very, being to the will of God.

    Now, if you´ll go to, what some incorrectly term, the parable of Lararus and the rich man you will see that the Olod Testament saints were in Paradise, a.k.a. Abraham´s Buxom with an uncrossable span inbetween there and Hell. Thyen when we look at Matt. 27:51 and on we see that when Jesus Gave up the ghost that the graveswere opened and those saints were released and were observed in the streets of the Holy City, Jerusalem. So it is that Paradise has been emptied and Hell is still being populated with the unsaved, where they await the Great White Throne Judgement.

    If you will just use the Nave´s Topical Study Bible and do the complete study of the topics of Judgement and Salvation you will then begin to understand that what you heretical thesis teaches is the nulification of the God required perfect sacrifice for the payment of sins. Throughout the Bible, known to most today as the Old Testament, the foreshadow of the required death of Jesus is illustrated with the perfect sacrifice of sin.

    Throughout the New Testament (the only God authored commentary on the Bible) we are assured of the facts that all men are sinful, that God has no part with sin or sinners and that Jesus is the only way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. No man has ever nor will any man ever earn his or her entrance into the Kingdom of God!
     
  16. th1bill

    th1bill
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    No, I understood the heresy you are teaching perfectly! The damned are, simply, just that, damned!
     
  17. Alfred Persson.

    Alfred Persson.
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    I was waiting for proof, not a diatribe.

    Diatribes are easy, proving what one says is correct, is not.

    Take the road less traveled, prove what you claim, show me from the scriptures.

    Insults no longer affect me at all, I'm used to them.

    Documenting my exegesis is unsound however, does impact me greatly.

    Give it a try. Rather than insults, try giving me reasons for believing as you do.

    You know the text:

    But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: (1Pe 3:15 KJV)
     
    #17 Alfred Persson., Jan 28, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 28, 2012
  18. th1bill

    th1bill
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    Okay! First we need to go back to the second or third grade because it is essential that the intent of any passage be understood. One of the great tragedies of our day is the dumbing down of the American Education system. Be cause of the lack of a proper education, today, it is possible for an Eighth Grade Graduate of the late fifties and early sixties to comprehend any given text more easily than many four and some eight year College Grads.

    It is for this reason that the Christian, understanding and using straight line logic is so often falsely accused of using Circular Logic when attempting to teach the Lost that the Bible is Self Interpreting. This only true when context is used and then context must be understood. My favorite example of context is the Southern Expression, ¨It´s raining Cats and Puppy Dogs outside.¨ Without contextual understanding one should expect to walk out the door and find dead Pups and Kittens littering the outside of the house or business... not at all true. Any Texan or other Southerner will not be at all concerned because they understand that what was just said is that itś pouring rain outside.

    When I was saved in 1990 I wanted to know all I could learn about God and I was fortunate enough to marry a very grounded lady and I was seated under a very patient Pastor that loved to teach. As a result I learn what may be the single most vital rule of Hermeneutics, no group of nor single verse of scripture can ever be understood without the light of (context) all other scripture shining on it or them.

    This accurate and yet simple rule that every Atheist, just, despises is exactly the same manor that any Novel or any other story is understood. This should conclude Contextual Understanding 101. In the case of the six verses you have used to lay the ground work for this heresy you´re trying to teach from the Book of the Gospel of John can only be misapplied in the manor you have used them if the reader, in this case, your student, has never read the entire Book of John or, better yet, the entirety of the Bible.

    In this case there are two contexts of concern, the Minor Context and the Major Context. The minor is the context of the Gospel of John and the Major Context is the context o the entire Bible. Anybody that has read the Bible, from front to rear in a continuous read more than twice knows that, in context, the message is the message of Salvation and that, only through Jesus, the Christ. The context of the Gospel of John is the birth, life, death and teaching of Jesus. With this in mind we begin;

    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    This verse lends itself to the purpose of defining the subjects field of concern. First we see that this lesson, directly from the words of the Son of God, limits the subject to the man that both hears and believes the Word of God! At this point it is important to read and to understand the first three chapters of te Bible, Gen. 1-3. Adam was given one commandment, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and as we read these chapters we learn that Adam knew that the penalty for eating of the tree was to pass from life unto death.

    Yet, Adam and Eve did not die the death we understand, lost or saved causing us to need to dig deeper because we know that lying is a sin and that Father God has no part with sin. As we read the early chapters of Genesis it easily understood that like God, Adam and Eve, had they not sinned by disobeying God, would never have died and that, unknown to them (perhaps) they had passed from that condition of Eternal Life into the condition of Eternal, not physical, but rather,
    Spiritual Death curred only by the acceptance of the Pardon purchased by Jesus, later on the cross.

    25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    Alright, we now have the context of the passage4 and we know that the death of Adam was not one of the physical nature but was instead the death of the Spiritual nature. When we spend a small amount of study we also learn that every man (generic for mankind) has, because Adam followed Eve, who followed Satan, inherited Adam´s fallen nature and is born Spiritually Dead.

    Again, because I know my story best and because I am led of the Holy Spirit to be a life application Bible teacher I´ll use my case history to illustrate this. I was raised in a Hellish household where sin was taught and all manor of life sin was demanded one might, incorrectly, say that I never stood a chance. The problem with that logic is that all Born of the Womb are born with the same load to bear. For this cause I was, like all of Adam´s children, born spiritually Dead.

    Without repeating the entire twenty-three year episode, the very moment I heard the voice of the Son of God, my life began to change. For me and for many others that hour, spoken of in this verse, has arrived, I heard (heeded) the message and now the Bill Taylor that was dead, is alive, Spiritually Alive!

    26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Verse 29 is one worthy of note for all men. To begin with it illustrates the truth that there are two and not one resurrection. The first is the much disputed resurrection of the Church. (Matt. 22:2-14 the Bride and the Guests) the final, often known as the Second Resurrection is when Hell is emptied out and the Judgment at the Great White Throne will occur. (Daniel chapters 10 -12 and all of the Revelation of the Christ to John) Now, we know that God is perfect justice and that being so, just as asll that are saved are not in the Bride (different levels of reward) so it must also be in The Bottomless firey Abyss.
     
  19. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I understand your approach to these scriptures but those who are expressing these views are very much alive and on earth when writing these things rather than in hades.

    A fundemental error by most Biblical theologions is that they are ignorant of the role of heaven and hell, life and death in the EXPERIENCE of people living upon earth.

    For example, many times we read David saying "quicken me" so that he can obey God's Word. We hear him describing his present experience in terms of death and hades. It should be obvious that he is not in heaven or hades but very much alive on planet earth when saying these things.

    The life of the believer begins by new birth or as the Old Testament refers to it as being circumcised in heart. That is a once for all time act by God that creates within us a new inward man created in true holiness and righteousness. However, there is an aspect of our nature that has not been born of God and from whence indwelling sin reigns - in the flesh. Children of God in regard to the EXPERIENTIAL life find themselves in a battle zone between their inward and outward man. When they sin they EXPERIENCE the reign of death in their life or EXPERIENTIAL SEPARATION from the blessings and fellowship of God and thus EXPERIENCE a measure of the pain and sufferings related to death and hades. When they are obedient unto God they EXPERIENCE the blessings of salvation and heaven (peace, joy, love, etc.) and so as James declares we experience what comes down from heaven and what comes up from hell presently in our life depending upon our walk:

    James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
    15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
    16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
    17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
    18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace
    .


    So, your first problem is that the writers expressing these thoughts are not in the grave or hades but very much alive on planet earth.

    Second, Obedience and disobedience brings EXPERIENTIAL life and death into our very lives. God does this to help mature us and provide incentives by giving us a experiential taste of both heaven and hell while living our life on earth.

    Third, the Bible never refers to a THIRD class of human beings. You are either "in the flesh" or "in the Spirit" (Rom. 8:8-9) a child of God or a child of Satan (1 Jn. 3:10); "lost" or "saved"; "righteous" or "unrighteous" (Mt. 25:46) but never is there ever mentioned any THIRD classification of human beings.
     
  20. billwald

    billwald
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    The door of Hell is latched on the inside.
     

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