John 12:32 question.

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by allinall, Jun 15, 2011.

  1. allinall

    allinall
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    John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

    God's program shifted from the nation of Israel to all nations and all peoples as recorded in Acts. Explained in Romans 11. This couldn't happen until Christ was first "lifted up from the earth". John 12:32 was simply a prophecy of things that were to come (Acts 1:8-9, 2:39). I don't believe He meant that every individual would be drawn, but that some would be drawn from all nations and from all peoples. For those who are drawn by God will will come to Him (faith) and be raised up in the last day (saved) (John 6:44). As we know, phrases like "all men" and "all the world" rarely means every individual in scripture. But that's besides the point.

    My question for those who believe in libertarian "free will" is this: Why didn't Jesus draw all men to Himself before He was lifted up?

    The basis for the belief in libertarian free will, as I understand it, is the idea that God must draw all men to Himself equally all the time because that's the only fair way. Yet Jesus tells us in John 12:32 that it is only after His ascention that He will draw all peoples to Himself. So, no matter how one defines "all men", they must admit, that there is an exclussion of some people who Christ Jesus was drawing before His was lifted up.

    How do you explain this?
     
  2. Skandelon

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    I agree!
    And it should be noted that UNTIL he is lifted up the gospel, "the power of God unto salvation," has not been sent to the world. And that is the means by which God has appointed to draw all men to himself. He sent the gospel to "every creature." And until He ascends and calls out Paul (as an apostle to the Gentiles) and sends Peter a dream about "all are clean," the gospel is not sent to all the world, but it was only entrusted to a remnant of Israel who were appointed to be the foundation for His Church.

    Instead, you have Jesus hiding the mystery of the Kingdom in parables (Matt 13; Mark 4), telling his disciples to keep things quite, sending Israel a "spirit of stupor" thus hardening them from understanding and repenting (John 12:39ff, Rom 11).

    I disagree. The gospel is the means through which God draws mankind to himself to be reconciled. It is His appeal: "Be reconciled to God." And since the gospel is clearly sent out to every creature and is clearly meant for everyone without distinction we must conclude that God's purpose is to draw (or make an appeal) to all mankind.

    I believe you are confusing two different issues. At the time Christ was on earth he was hiding the gospel in parables and actively blinding Israel from the gospel truth. And the appeal for reconciliation hadn't even been sent to the Gentiles yet. The only people at that time being "drawn" (or being revealed the gospel appeal) were the remnant of Israel, those select by God from Israel, to take the message of hope to the world and be the foundation of the church. The rest were being judicially and temporarily hardened in their rebellion.

    And those phrases never mean "a select few."

    Because if the large number of Jews had come to faith (as we see in Acts 2 when Peter preached) they would have never yelled out "crucify him!" God hardened Pharaoh in the OT to accomplish the first passover. God hardened Israel in the NT to accomplish the real Passover. That is what Romans 9 is about.

    That would be an incorrect perception.

    Hopefully my explanation above answers this, but feel free to ask more questions if I left something out.
     
  3. MB

    MB
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    Because He had to die before He could save them. There is no forgiveness of sin with out the shedding of His blood. By the way He drew them by the thousands. The gospels testify of this.
    Why do you assume they are excluded? Does the Bible say they were? I disagree that all men aren't drawn. I was drawn to be saved. I was drawn as soon as I was old enough to understand the words "come unto me". At every invitation I can actually feel the draw. I still feel the draw. I'm drawn to church 3 to 4 times a week. I'm drawn to God's Holy Word. I'm drawn to pray for others. To help in any way I can, it seems it never stops for me. Each time I'm drawn, It's God showing me the way I should go. Does this draw ever stop? I hope not. I'm not complaining, I'm fine with it the way that it is.

    Those who were drawn before the crusfixion were most likely drawn afterwards. Men sometimes are drawn many times before they submit to the righteousness of God. I was everytime I went to church with my folks. From as early as I can remember until I was 14 when I surrendered to Jesus Christ.

    There certainly isn't any thing special about me. Why He would want or desire me is beyond my understanding. Yet here I am do with me as you will Father.
    MB
     
  4. allinall

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    Skandelon

    Skandelon, If you equate the drawing with the hearing of the Gospel, then all who hear the Gospel are saved (John 6:44). There's no way around it. All who are drawn by God come to Him. And all who come to Him are lifted up in the last day. If you are not a universalist, then you have a major bug in your theology to deal with.

    Here's a few examples.

    1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    John 11:51 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, 52 and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.


    =================

    Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria. 3 So all went to be registered, everyone to his own city.


    ==================

    Do you believe that in the Bible, words like "all" and "world" and "every man" always mean every last single thing or person unless specifically limited (e.g. 1 John 3:3) OR do you recognise that sometimes in the Bible, words like "all" means "all kinds of" (1 Timothy 6:10) and "world" means Gentiles as opposed to Jews only (John 12:19-20) and "every man" means "every kind of man" (Acts 4:35/1 Corinthians 7:2) without any specific mention of a limitation?

    Dave
     
  5. Skandelon

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    You are plucking that verse out of its context to apply it to something the author never intended. That is called "proof texting" and is an improper hermeneutic.

    Jesus is speaking to Jews who have been blinded in their rebellion. They have not be given the ability to come to him. They have not been enabled. But the twelve, the apostles who the father had given to Christ to be the foundation of the church and to take the message to the rest of world had been, had been enabled, which is why Jesus goes on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve."

    That only supports the idea of universalism if you deny the conditional aspect of the gospel...."believe and you will be saved." We believe in a provisional atonement, as is taught throughout scripture.

    I don't deny that there are limitations on some of these phrases. But, one would be doing a great injustice to the text to take inclusive phrases such as "whosoever will believe" and "everyone who comes" and "the whole world" and "desires all to come..." etc as actually having an exclusive meaning...i.e. "God only selects a certain few."

    Yes, there are passages which are clearly speaking of the inclusion of the Gentiles, but your interpretation is not inclusive, but exclusive, which is never supported in the text.
     
  6. quantumfaith

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    I read John 12:32 twofold.

    First, the obvious is clearly stated in vs. 33, a reference to his coming crucifixion. Second, to me implied, the coming presence of the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. convicted1

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    In John 12:32, Jesus is explaining the "shift" that was going to take place after His resurrection. Go back to John six for a moment:

    John 6: 37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

    40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    Right here shows you who Jesus is talking about. He is talking about those who were with Him at the time He was here on earth, and not all of mankind that was to come in the future. Have any of us seen Him with our natural eyes? So He is talking about those who lived with Him at that time in history.

    41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

    42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

    43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.



    John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

    Jesus, when He came, came to His own(elect) first. Even His own(elect) most of them rejected Him.
    12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    Jesus, when He came down, He came down to the Jews first. And when they rejected Him, He then turned to the Gentiles. He also sent Apostle Paul to do this for Him; preach to the gentiles. The Syrophoenician woman who daughter was very sick, when Jesus saw her faith, He gave her what she wanted; seeing her daughter healed. Also, in John chapter four, He came to the Samaritan woman at the well, and He gave her that Living water He told her about. So, Jesus came to the Jews first, and those who believed, He healed/saved.

    Matt. 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

    6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

    7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

    Acts 13:45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    So, in summation, John 12:32 tells us that when Jesus is lifted up into heaven the last time, He would draw all men unto Him. In His earthly body, He was confined to being one place at a time. Now, being in His Spiritual body, He can(and does), draw all unto Himself....just most refuse to come.

    i am I AM's!!

    Willis
     
    #7 convicted1, Jun 19, 2011
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  8. Winman

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    I understand Jn 12:32 a little differently than some here. I believe it is the love shown by Jesus in being willing to take our sins upon himself and die in our place that draws a man. How can a man not be deeply convicted who considers this?

    When I read Jesus's words in the gospel, I am amazed by his wisdom, when I read of his miracles of healing people I see his compassion. But when I read of the cross, that touches home, this is PERSONAL. It is wonderful to read of what Jesus did for others, but dying on the cross he did for ME (and all men).

    Greater love has no man than to give his life for another. It is a stone cold heart that is not impressed when he understands Jesus gave himself for us, not simply as a whole, but as individuals. It should have been me that hung on that cross, justly condemned for my own sins, not a loving, perfectly righteous man who never did harm to others.

    You could be the coldest, cruelest, most hateful person on earth, but even the hardest heart is crushed by the love Jesus showed us.

    His teachings and miracles were wonderful, but it is his dying on the cross for us that is PERSONAL.
     
  9. Van

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    A very nice thread where actual scripture is discussed and considered!

    I think "high and lifted up" does not refer to Christ's ascension, but to His crucifixion.

    "All" means all of the group the author intended. So in order for others to "behold" or be aware that Christ was high and lifted up, they would have to see it or otherwise become aware of it. So the all does not refer to those who died unaware that Jesus was high and lifted up. But on the other hand, I believe with Winman, that the appeal, the attraction is the lovingkindness Jesus demonstrated for mankind, for we love Him because He first loved us. And this is love, that He died for us.

    So consistent with Skandelon, I believe the gospel, which makes people aware that Jesus died for them, draws all men who hear with understanding the gospel. Three of the four soils of Matthew 13 were "drawn" by the gospel.

    Next, I disagree with the view expressed in the OP concerning John 6:44. It says those who are drawn by God will come to me. But as Matthew 13 shows, people can be drawn by God and yet not "come to Me" in the manner in view in John 6:44. What the verse actually says is everyone, 100% of those who "come to me" in this manner, were (1) drawn by the Father, and (2) I will raise up on the last day meaning when they came to Him in the manner in view, there were saved. It does not say all that were drawn were saved.

    Now in verse 45, it says all that have heard and "learned" (an additional requirement) comes to Me. So if we put the ideas together, all men who (1) hear or are otherwise exposed to the gospel - John 12:32, and (2) understand it (i.e. not the kind of person represented by the first soil of Matthew 13) and (3) learn from it (i.e. trust in Christ fully as the only basis of salvation) - John 6:45, (4) will be given to Christ by God, and all (100%) of these given to Me, will (come to me, arrive in Me) and (5) I will not cast them (those in Me) out - John 6:37.

    A couple more points, we do not have to see Jesus with our own eyes to be saved, all we have to do is believe in His name, which is to say believe in what He is know for which is the gospel of Christ. John 6:40 says everyone who "beholds" the Son which refers to being aware of the gospel, and believes in Him, which refers to learning from the gospel, will be saved.

    Last point, "His own" refers to Jews, descendants of Abraham, corporately chosen by God, and thus elected for the purpose of providing God's revelation to mankind both in the inspired Word and the living Word, Christ Jesus. He came to save the world, all mankind, He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all of mankind.
     
    #9 Van, Jun 19, 2011
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  10. Earth Wind and Fire

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    Ah, again statements like this/ yours Van (see below) always begs the question..... then why is everyone not saved?

    He came to save the world, all mankind, He became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all of mankind.
     
  11. Skandelon

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    I'm not sure why the answer to this question is not obvious. Why is everyone not saved? Because God gave man free will to accept or reject his appeal to be reconciled. Van's statement in no way contradicts that view. Affirming that God has provided the means for all to be saved doesn't mean all will.
     
    #11 Skandelon, Jun 20, 2011
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  12. Van

    Van
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    Reply to EW&F,

    The statement does not beg the question. Only those who receive the reconciliation are saved. What part of provided for all mankind, received by those whose faith God credits as righteousness do you not understand?
     
  13. JesusFan

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    Does God grant to all men the means to receive Jesus though?
    Don't BOTH Cals/Arms affirm that we cannot come to Jesus ourselves. MUST be enabled by His Grace applied beforehand? That we cannot be "reconciled" to Him unless he actually allows it first?

    How do we know God gives ALL people that Gift of grace?
    How do we know all can "freely" accept/reject?
     
  14. Skandelon

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    Yes, in that he sent the gospel to "every creature." No, in that every creature may not hear it, but he does grant all the ability to have faith in Him by which they can be credited as righteous through the atoning work of Jesus, as was Abraham. This is why all men are without excuse. They all have what is needed to believe and acknowledge God as God and in doing so will be granted further revelation of Himself.

    Yes. We agree that God must allow it. I believe He does that by sending the gospel, for how will they know unless someone tells them?

    Some Arminians believe there is an additional work of Grace besides the gospel by which men are "enabled" but I don't see that supported in the text. I believe the power of God unto salvation is the gospel and the HS works in and through it alone to bring men to faith in Christ.
     
    #14 Skandelon, Jun 20, 2011
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  15. allinall

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    {SNIP - Questions about your membership can be addressed in a PM to an Admin.}
     
    #15 allinall, Jun 20, 2011
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  16. convicted1

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    I tend to disagree with this, Brother Van. We are not saved by His death, but, moreover, His resurrection.

    1 Cor. 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

    13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

    14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

    15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

    16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

    17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

    All of our hope is in His resurrection, and not just His death and burial. If He hasn't already risen, ALL OF US are liars who proclaim Him to be alive forevermore.

    I agree!!

    Agree here, too!!


    I believe that John 6:40 is referring to those who were with Him at the time He was alive in the flesh, and saw Him in the flesh. It was those who saw Who He really was, the Son of God.....or that's just my belief.
     
  17. Van

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    Reply to Jesusfan,

    There is a spectrum of belief as far as the meaning of "enabled." Cals say "irresistible grace", Arms say prevenient grace, and some non cal/arms say revealing grace provides the opportunity to choose, but does not supernaturally alter the core capability of some fallen men, the last three soils of Matthew 13.

    God does grant the means to receive the gospel to men who hear the gospel with understanding. Some "learn" and some "don't. But God's system allows folks to harden themselves so they cannot understand, i.e. the first soil of Matthew 13, and scripture tells us of God's intervention to harden some hearts which precluded "receiving" the gospel, i.e. Romans 11, not to mention Judas in John 6.

    So yes, we cannot be reconciled unless God allows it first. But it is in the mechanism of the "allowing" that Cals and Arms, and non Cal/Arms differ.

    God has not given all people the gift of revealing grace, some have been conceived and died without hearing or understanding the gospel. And even some who live "innocently" (i.e. do not harden their hearts by the practice of sin) to an age where most people know right from wrong, some are feeble minded and cannot grasp the gospel. I believe God treats all these justly.

    How do we know that most but not all can "freely" receive the gospel. Because that is the gospel of Christ. For God so loved mankind that He gave His one of a kind Son, so that whoever from among mankind, believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16 is inclusive, and presents the offer of salvation to the world of fallen mankind.
     
  18. JesusFan

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    So you do NOT hold to the Biblical truth that God must enable us to be able to respond by faith and receive jesus Christ?
    that somehow all of us have within us at birth the means to hear and believe in Jesus by JUST having the Gospel presented to us?

    Doesn't that once again make us the Ultimate basis/source of our salavtion, as we are stll "good enough" to reply in ourselves to God?
     
  19. Skandelon

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    Depends on what you mean by that.

    I believe the bible when it says "the gospel is the power of God unto salvation," so without it people would remain in darkness, but with it they are "enabled" to come. You must understand that during the time of Christ the gospel hadn't been sent to the world yet. It was being hidden in parables and even the apostles didn't fully get it until after Christ had ascended and Paul was called and Peter had a dream.

    Faith cometh by hearing and during the time of Christ the Jews were being blinded/deafened to the gospel so they could not see, hear and repent.


    Did you refer to the powerful, life giving message of the cross as, "just having the Gospel?"

    I can list a dozen passages which talk about the power of this gospel truth. Can you list just one that speaks of the power of the so-called "irresistible" or "effectual" calling in the Calvinism model?
    No, not unless you presume that "humbling yourself" (as scripture calls us to do) is boast worthy in the same way that pursuing righteousness through the works of the law is. God is the ultimate source, just because mankind can resist the appeal of the gospel doesn't make the source of salvation any different...it is still FROM GOD.
     
  20. JesusFan

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    still the basic question remains... can a person hear and respond to the gospel by placing faith In jesus by Just the word, NO enabling by the Holy Spirit?
     

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