John 12:47-48

I understand that the Bible teaches the doctrines of God's amazing grace throughout. The Bible certainly does not teach the self-salvation by man's corrupted free will while he is spiritually dead and separated from God that you and other non-Calvinists teach.

Got it?

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Nobody is claiming self salvation, this issue is used to confuse and evade only. It is most often used when no biblical rebuttal is availiable.

Well, which is all the time. Huuum

 

Mark, you have done a wonderful job placing those passages into a sound biblical perspective.

Excellant Job.
Oh!!! BTW. If Ken is can be a Spurgeonite, do you mind if I become an Osagatharpian. More scriptural....

 

I understand that but the practical consequences of the free will position result in that being the case. Otherwise, there would not be millions of people who think they are saved on the basis that they walked an aisle, prayed a canned prayer, or signed a decision card.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

You write that like you're searching for the truth..but we all know that isn't the case.

Time and time again it has been presented with scripture that God will's all men to be saved.(tim 2:4).that all man has to do is hear and accept what he has heard (eph 1:13)

but you can't get your mind around that.

You think that if a man Choses to accept what he has heard as truth that is "doing something" But Fatih cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God" (Rom 10:17)

A man gets the witness when he hears the truth..God said so. Fatih cometh BY HEARING. all he has to do is recieve that witness as the truth and accept it. ( john 1:12)

Can he do this..Yes he can as SO MANY of the scripture passages point out. ( Acts 16:30-31)

 

Shilo,

I would hope we are all searching for truth.

As far as your understanding of me, evidently you don't have the slightest clue.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

I walked and aisle Ken. I sure did. And you won't talk me out of my salvation no matter how hard you try.

I heard..I made up my mind that what I heard was the truth and that I was on my way to hell..I got up..and took the Free Gift of salvation that was being offerd to me. Because I accepted and RECIEVED..God saved me made me one of his sons.(john 1:12)

 

Shilo,

Do you believe that walking the aisle was necessary to salvation?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

So then why aren't all men saved (Job 42:2).

This is certainly true. But John 8:43 tells us that certain ones "cannot hear" (a word of ability) the word of Christ.

 

Nope.

Nor do I believe the Holy spirit first quickend me so I coud believe. that's nonsense.

You already have your answer.

The Bible says that it's God's will that All men be saved and come to the knowledge of truth.( tim 2:4)

See your back on that "election" thing. you don't rightly divide the scriptures and misapply verse to suit your thinking. Man is Not at a Total Inability to recieve Christ.

Why don't certain ones hear the word?? Not because they are ordained to be cast into hell.. hell was created for the devil and his angels ..NOT for man.

Your theology makes the Bible contradict itself all over the place. and causes all sorts of confussion. And God is Not the Author of Confussion.. Calvinism is not Of God.

 

Actually I don't have my answer since you didn't answer it. You cite 2 tim 2:4. I questioned you with regard to Job 42:2 which expressly says that God's purpose cannot be thwarted. Now, assuming that "purpose" and "will" are synonymous for you, why aren't all saved if God's will cannot be thwarted?

See your back on that "election" thing. you don't rightly divide the scriptures and misapply verse to suit your thinking. Man is Not at a Total Inability to recieve Christ.[/quote][/qb]Who mentioned election?? I was talking about inability. The verse says that some are unable to understand the word of Christ. I haven't wrongly divided Scripture. I haven't misapplied the verse. I asked you for your reconciliation of these explicit verses with your theology.

Is there a reason you didn't answer the question?

Where?? I haven't seen these contradictions. Perhaps you can point them out.

However, note that you have not answered one of my questions. Why not??

 

I did answer your questions Pastor Larry..you just don't get it.

what I meant was you already have the answer in your heart that you are willing to believe. what i site from the Bible will make no difference to what you already think.

Job 42:2 says NOTHING like what you said..

"I know that thou canst do everything and that no thought can be withholden from thee".. where do you get your statement from??

Yes I know you were.. however eletion plays into it for in your theology only those "elected" can hear God's word. which is nowhere to be found in scripture.

you misapply scripture in the worst way. and you take titles that aren't yours to begin with such as " God's elect" you run to John which has nothing to do with the church age to try to prove man's inabiliy..

In this passage it is the unbelieveing JEW being addressed twice as "ye" that are under Jesus's consideration. They could not hear Christ's word not just because they were, like all of the unregenerate (acts 26:18) (eph 2:2), of their father the devil and not of God, But because the did the lusts of their father and did not believe Christ when he told them the truth (john 8:45,46)

Not only was their "inablity" conditional, it was also not permanent, for Jesus had said earlier that because they were from "beneath" (jn.8:23), they would die in their sins and not be able to go where he was going (jn.8;21) Yet, they would only die in their sins IF THEY DID NOT BELIEVE (jn.8:24)

what is even more amuzing to me is that Calvinsit can't seem to make up their minds as to what is going on.( confusion in te ranks)..

Calvinist D.A. Carson makes this statement

"Jesus does not say they fail to grasp his message because they can not follow his spoken word, his idiom, but that they fail to understand his idiom precisely because they cannot "hear" his message. The jews remain responsible for their own "Cannot" whichm far from resulting from divine fiat, is determined by their own desire (theolusin) to perform the Lust ( tas epithymias) of the devil ( 8.44) this "Cannot" this slavery to sin(8.340 itself stems from personal sin" (D.A. carson, Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility (Atlanta knox press 1981) pg.166)

 

That is easy..
you say the scriptures teach that Man is at a total Inability to go to God for salvation..You use the book of John to just crush scripture into what you would like it to say..such as John 8:43

However if you hadn't taken that scripture out of it's context and others like it they would not contradict with these statements

"Look unto me and be saved, All the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else (isa. 45:22)

"And saying, The time is fufilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand repent ye and believe the gospel ( Mark 1:15)

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at: but now cammandeth all men everywhere to repent" ( acts 17:30)

And this is the Commandment, that we should believe on the mane of his Son Jesus Christ..." (1 jn. 3:23)

"And the spirit and the Bride say come. And let him that heareth say Come. And let him that is athirst come. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take of the water of life freely ( rev. 22:17)

'Come unto me all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest" (mat. 11;28)

"In the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying If any man thisrt let him come unto me, and drink. (jn.7;37)

If total Inabiliy is true they wat are we to make of these verses?? Is God just mocking his creation? Would God present salvation to a man knowing that the man could never even will to recieve it? The God Of the Bible is not the god of Calvinism. God himself even gives the genuineness of his intentions: " I have not spoken in secret, i a dark place of the earth: I said bot unto the seed of jacob, Seek me in vain: I the Lord speak rightousness, i declare things that are right" (isa. 45:9)

Even Erasmus recognised this in a debate against Luther over free will: "If it is not in the power of every man to keep what is commanded, all the exhortations in the scriptures, ans all the promises, threats, expostulations, reproofs,adjurations, blessings, curses, and hosts of precepts, are of necessity useless" ( Desiderius erasmus, quoted in Luther, pg 171)

 

In the Bible it is clear that the possibilty exists that a man could believe under a given set of circumstances:

"Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, LEST THEY SHOULD BELIEVE and be saved. (Luke 8:12)

"and will ye not come to me, that ye might have life" (Jn.5:40)

"Forbidding us to speak unto the gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost" (1 thes. 2:16)

These verses don't mean that under a given set of circumstances man will always believe. But they do show that there is a possibility. And if there exisits even the slightest possibility that a man could believe, the doctrine of total Inability falls by the wayside.