John 14:14 and Revelation 14:1

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Olivencia, Apr 10, 2009.

  1. Olivencia

    Olivencia
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    In John 14:14 the modern versions allows us to pray to the Lord Jesus. The KJV lacks the word "Me".
    Likewise in Revelation 14:1 the modern versions contain "His name" in reference to the Lord Jesus. The KJV lacks this important clause in that it is further proof that Christ is receiving latreuw (the worship that is due to God alone) in Revelation 22:3 (cf. Revelation 22:4).

    Thank you

    Olivencia
     
  2. Eliyahu

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    John 14:14 - Mss are split on this verse, There are many mss without Me, even including A. But the mss which have Me are including the Roman Catholic B, Aleph, Codex Ephraemi, some portion of Majority texts. I don't say it is wrong theologically, but we must remember that RCC prays to many, many including Mary and to the dead Saints. It might have been added later. KJV is correct in this case. Often KJV is based on the better, more accurate manuscripts, not only on the majority of the manuscripts.

    Re 14:1 - My information on the mss supports in Revelation is not very much comprehensive, and therefore I cannot comment correctly on Rev.
    But KJV may be wrong. Majority mss have His name.
    KJV departed from the majority without the proper reasons in Revelation several times.

    Re 22:3 is not a problem. Hope you know it.

    However, there are many verses where MV's delete or distorted the deity of Jesus in many other verses.


    http://www.hissheep.org/kjv/a_comparison_of_the_kjv_niv.html


    MV's may have beams in their eyes, while KJV may have dusts and motes in its eyes
     
  3. Eliyahu

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    As for Re 14:1, what we should distinguish is whether any omission or distortion is intentional or it is simply because the bible is based on the wrong texts.

    The article that I mentioned above shows the consistent negligence of deity in NIV.

    http://www.hissheep.org/kjv/a_comparison_of_the_kjv_niv.html


    NIV deleted much part of the 2 Peter 1:1

    KJV

    1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    NIV

    1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

    This is a serious deletion.
     
  4. Olivencia

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    Fact: The modern versions give far better proof for the deity of Christ in the passages I cited in my thread.
     
    #4 Olivencia, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2009
  5. Eliyahu

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    Nope ! you can say that only before you have compared many verses between MV's and KJV, and Greek texts.
    You must have not read what I posted.

    http://www.hissheep.org/kjv/a_comparison_of_the_kjv_niv.html

    Only a portion of it for your reading:


    Matthew 6:13KJV "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."NIV "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one." The NIV leaves out "For thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory for ever. Amen." Everything pertaining to His Kingdom and Deity is left out."
    Matthew 6:33KJV "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."NIV "But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." "The kingdom of God" is changed to "his kingdom."
    Matthew 8:29KJV "And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"NIV "'What do you want with us, Son of God?' they shouted. '"Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'" NIV leaves out "Jesus, thou", degrading the power of the verse concerning His deity.
    Matthew 9:18KJV ". . there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him. ."NIV "While he was saying this, a ruler came and knelt before him and said, 'My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live.'" NIV changes "worshipped" to "knelt before." Men kneel before their own kings and queens, but they do not worship them.
    Matthew 13:51KJV "Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto Him, Yea, Lord." NIV "'Have you understood all these things?' Jesus asked. 'Yes,' they replied." NIV leaves out "Lord," again, leaving out His Lordship.
    Matthew 16:20KJV "Then charged He his disciples that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ."NIV "Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ." NIV leaves out "Jesus," as it does in numerous verses.
    Matthew 20:20KJV "Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him. ."NIV "Then the mother of Zebedee's sons came to Jesus with her sons and, kneeling down, asked a favor of him." NIV again changes "worshipping" to "kneeling down."
    Matthew 25:13KJV "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."NIV "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour." NIV leaves out "wherein the Son of man cometh."
    Mark 1:14KJV "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God."NIV "After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God." NIV says "the good news" and leaves out "the gospel of the kingdom of God."
    Mark 5:6KJV "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,"NIV "When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him." NIV changes "worshipped" to "fell on his knees."
    Mark 9:24KJV "And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief."NIV "Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, 'I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!'" NIV leaves out the reference to Jesus as "Lord."
    Mark 11:10KJV "Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest." NIV "'Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father David!' 'Hosanna in the highest!'" NIV changes his present kingdom to a future one saying "Blessed is the coming kingdom" and strips Jesus of His present Lordship.
    Luke 4:8KJV "And Jesus said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."NIV "Jesus answered, 'It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.'" NIV leaves out "Get thee behind me Satan."
    Luke 4:41KJV "And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God ..."NIV "Moreover, demons came out of many people, shouting, 'You are the Son of God! ...'" NIV leaves out the reference to Jesus by the devils that He was "Christ."
    Luke 7:31KJV "And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?"NIV "To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like?" NIV leaves out "And the Lord said."

    It is not a big secret that NIV omits Words of God in thousands of spots.
     
    #5 Eliyahu, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  6. Olivencia

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    Do you know how to read? You give me this long response without even addressing John 14:14 and Revelation 14:1.

    I'll write it again...
    Fact: The modern versions give far better proof for the deity of Christ in the passages I cited in my thread.
     
  7. Eliyahu

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    We can pray to Jesus without John 14:14. If John 14:14 didn't have ME from the beginning, the Translators shouldn't have it. This is very much simple and used by MV proponents as well.
    You are parroting the same ! What else do you know?
     
  8. Olivencia

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    We can pray to Jesus without John 14:14.

    --> Of course...but the modern version give better proof for it in this passage.




    If John 14:14 didn't have ME from the beginning, the Translators shouldn't have it. This is very much simple and used by MV proponents as well.
    You are parroting the same ! What else do you know?


    --> Revelation 14:1...which you choose to ignore (for obvious reasons)
     
  9. Eliyahu

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    Listen, Bible is not manufactured by human beings!

    If there is no ME in John 14:14, it should be omitted.

    In the same logic, if there is His Name in Rev 14:1, then it should be there, and KJV can be wrong in that verse.
     
  10. Olivencia

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    So given how John 14:14 and Revelation 14:1 reads in the modern versions the assertion used by KJV Onlyists that the modern versions try to rob Christ of His deity falls flat on its face.
     
  11. Askjo

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    Why negate against the KJV?
     
  12. Olivencia

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    I'm saying the modern versions are more clear in these passages. KJV Onlyists like to insist that modern versions try to rob Christ of His deity but these two passages totally refute this absurd way of thinking.
     
  13. Askjo

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    Really??? Let me give you 2 passages and other 2 passages for you to COMPARE. Not only NIV, but more modern versions showed.

    John 8: 14 NIV

    my testimony is valid

    John 5:31 NIV

    my testimony is not valid.

    And compare here:

    Genesis 2:17 NIV

    you will surely die

    Genesis 3:4 NIV

    You will not surely die


    NIV said Jesus' testimony is valid AND not valid. Better proof for the deity of Christ? No, no, nooo!
     
  14. Eliyahu

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    You cannot say so only because of 2 verses.

    In John 14:14, when there is a split and variances among the manuscripts, KJV would have rejected the mss which do not have Pericope Adulturae( John 7:53-8:11) and Roman Catholic texts like B, because they are very much erraneous in most verses. If there is no ME in the manuscripts, it is right that the translators do not include ME there.

    Revelation is not that simple, the Vatican Text ( so-called the Oldest Codex) doesn't have the entire book of Revelation, then Textus Receptus ( the basis for KJV) departs from the majority often, and people do not have the comprehensive understanding about the accuracy of each mss in this case.

    I showed you hundreds of verses where KJV is much clear about the deity of Jesus Christ. You are continuing to point out the motes and dusts in KJV while you keep the beams in your eyes.
     
    #14 Eliyahu, Apr 10, 2009
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2009
  15. Olivencia

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    Really??? Let me give you 2 passages and other 2 passages for you to COMPARE. Not only NIV, but more modern versions showed.

    John 8: 14 NIV

    my testimony is valid

    John 5:31 NIV

    my testimony is not valid.

    And compare here:

    Genesis 2:17 NIV

    you will surely die

    Genesis 3:4 NIV

    You will not surely die

    NIV said Jesus' testimony is valid AND not valid. Better proof for the deity of Christ? No, no, nooo!


    --> Thanks for addressing something that is not under discussion. What a complete waste of time and effort. Try to stick with the subject of THIS THREAD. That goes for you too Eliyahu. I made the assertion that these two passages show more clearly the deity of Christ in modern versions. What you have not done and can not do is to refute this assertion. Plain and simple. Deal with the facts. If you want to discuss other passages then start another thread and have fun. These two passages are the subject of THIS THREAD. Since you both made at least more than one post and have been utterly unable to refute what I have asserted simply reveals it is a lost cause trying to make either one of you admit to the obvious. The reason(s) for this is unclear but it usually comes down to pride.

    So long.
     
  16. Tater77

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    John 5:31 (New International Version)
    31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

    John 5:31 (King James Version)
    31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    Genesis 3:4 (New International Version)
    4 "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman.

    Genesis 3:4 (King James Version)
    4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

    This is certainly odd indeed. John 5:31 and 8:14 are two different events with different context. In 5:31 Christ is talking about the Jewish teaching tradition of the time, you taught in the name of others. Then in 8:14 He is saying this:

    John 8:14 (New International Version)

    14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.

    The "Even if" is the key phrase there, basically saying that Christ is telling the truth no matter how He puts it. Nice how you took that one out of context.

    Genesis 2:17 (New International Version)

    17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

    The two verses in Genesis , you did the same thing. That was very dishonest of you. But if you really didnt know, you should do better research.
     
  17. Keith M

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    EVERY argument/assertion used by KJVOs falls flat - there is absolutely NO scriptural support for the KJVO position.
     
  18. Keith M

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    Amen, Olivencia! Preach it!

    Great argument, Askjo! Excuse me for a moment while I sink it...

    You falsely claim the NIV contradicts itself in John 5:31 and John 8:14. Of course if that makes the NIV an invalid Bible translation, then the KJVs are just as invalid.

    The Cambridge and Oxford KJVs agree with the 1611 KJV in both verses.

    These are two totally different situations, Askjo, and Jesus makes two totally different statements. He does NOT contradict Himself. Read the verses in context instead of taking them out of context at the word of some KJVO writer - those KJVO writers will let you down every time.

    Next...

    You erroneously compare Gen 2:17 and Gen 3:4. Are you claiming these verses contradict one another in the NIV? If that's the case, the same contradiction is found in the KJVs.

    Again, the Cambridge and Oxford KJVs agree with the 1611 KJV in these verses.

    If you take the time to read these verses IN CONTEXT you'll see your error, Askjo. In the first verse, God is telling Adam and Eve not to eat the forbidden fruit or they will die. In the second verse, Satan is tempting Eve to eat the forbidden fruit. Satan coaxes Eve to eat the fruit by telling her exactly the opposite of what God has already said. The only contradiction in these two verses is Satan's contradiction of God's word.

    Askjo, you really need to check your "facts" before you make such laughable assertions. Such cut-and-paste false assertions do absolutely nothing to support the KJVO position. In fact, such false assertions actually damage the KJVO position.

    BTW, when Eve took and ate of the forbidden fruit there is more than one sin evident. First, Eve doubted God's word that they would die if they ate the fruit. The second sin is that she actually reached out, took the fruit and ate it. The first sin recorded in the Bible wasn't eating the fruit - it was doubting God's word. KJVOs of today similarly doubt God's word in any translation that isn't one of the KJVs.

    Olivencia, it's quite typical of KJVOs to lay down smoke screens and to sidestep the issue. Show KJVOs like Askjo how a modern Bible translation reflects Christ's deity more than the KJVs in particular verses and they'll normally come up with some poor attempt to show something else supposedly wrong with modern translations. Askjo's supposed contradiction in the NIV is just one example of a KJVO ploy to denigrate modern Bible translations. If memory serves me correctly, Askjo has used this argument in the past only to have it blown apart. Maybe it wasn't Askjo, but another KJVO advocate. It doesn't matter - the argument is just as faulty no matter who presents it. It doesn't matter that the KJVs have the same supposed contradiction. Such false arguments show KJVO incinsistency. These false arguments do more to damage the KJVO position than to bolster it. I love it when KJVOs post such drivel because their arguments are so easily blown apart with Scripture.
     
  19. Keith M

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    Askjo, why do you always argue against the truth? The KJVs are NOT perfect, and your false arguments do nothing at all to support the errant KJVO position you promote. It seems you'd eventually learn something when every argument you post is destroyed.
     
  20. franklinmonroe

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    Disgraceful error. The NIV (not my favorite version) actually states --
    Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ
    have received a faith as precious as ours
    : (2 Peter 1:1, NIV)
     

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