John 16 and 17

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by natters, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. natters

    natters
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    How do these chapters support the notion of KJV exclusiveness and/or inerrancy? How could they, if they were true before the KJV existed?
     
  2. AVL1984

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    Personally, I don't see how they do. I find these verses in my NIV and NASB and NKJV. I don't see where they have any relevance to the KJVO position.

    AVL1984
     
  3. StefanM

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    I just read through the KJV rendering of the passage, but I haven't the foggiest as to how that supposedly supports any position on versions.

    I guess if I understood, I would understand. :D
     
  4. David J

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    For those who do not own a copy of the Geneva Bible(1599) here is John 16 & 17:

    John 16:1-33 GNV(1599) John 16:1 These thinges haue I saide vnto you, that ye should not be offended. 2 They shall excommunicate you: yea, the time shall come, that whosoeuer killeth you, will thinke that he doeth God seruice. 3 And these things will they doe vnto you, because they haue not knowen ye Father, nor me. 4 But these things haue I tolde you, that when the houre shall come, ye might remember, that I tolde you them. And these things said I not vnto you from ye beginning, because I was with you. 5 But now I go my way to him that sent me, and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 6 But because I haue saide these thinges vnto you, your hearts are full of sorowe. 7 Yet I tell you the trueth, It is expedient for you that I goe away: for if I goe not away, that Comforter will not come vnto you: but if I depart, I will send him vnto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reproue the worlde of sinne, and of righteousnesse, and of iudgement. 9 Of sinne, because they beleeued not in me: 10 Of righteousnesse, because I goe to my Father, and ye shall see me no more: 11 Of iudgement, because the prince of this world is iudged. 12 I haue yet many things to say vnto you, but ye cannot beare them nowe. 13 Howbeit, when he is come which is the Spirit of trueth, he will leade you into all trueth: for he shall not speake of himselfe, but whatsoeuer he shall heare, shall he speake, and he will shew you the things to come. 14 He shall glorifie me: for he shall receiue of mine, and shall shewe it vnto you. 15 All thinges that the Father hath, are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shewe it vnto you. 16 A litle while, and ye shall not see me: and againe a litle while, and ye shall see me: for I goe to the Father. 17 Then said some of his disciples among them selues, What is this that he saieth vnto vs, A litle while, and ye shall not see me, and againe, a litle while, and ye shall see me, and, For I goe to the Father. 18 They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A litle while? we know not what he sayeth. 19 Now Iesus knew that they would aske him, and said vnto them, Doe ye enquire among your selues, of that I said, A litle while, and ye shall not see me: and againe, a litle while, and yee shall see me? 20 Verely, verely I say vnto you, that ye shall weepe and lament, and the worlde shall reioyce: and ye shall sorowe, but your sorowe shalbe turned to ioye. 21 A woman when she traueileth, hath sorowe, because her houre is come: but assoone as she is deliuered of the childe, she remembreth no more the anguish, for ioy that a man is borne into the world. 22 And ye nowe therefore are in sorowe: but I will see you againe, and your hearts shall reioyce, and your ioy shall no man take from you. 23 And in that day shall ye aske me nothing. Verely, verely I say vnto you, whatsoeuer ye shall aske the Father in my Name, he will giue it you. 24 Hitherto haue ye asked nothing in my Name: aske, and ye shall receiue, that your ioye may be full. 25 These things haue I spoken vnto you in parables: but the time will come, when I shall no more speake to you in parables: but I shall shew you plainely of the Father. 26 At that day shall ye aske in my Name, and I say not vnto you, that I will pray vnto the Father for you: 27 For the Father himselfe loueth you, because ye haue loued me, and haue beleeued that I came out from God. 28 I am come out from the Father, and came into the worlde: againe I leaue the worlde, and goe to the Father. 29 His disciples saide vnto him, Loe, nowe speakest thou plainely, and thou speakest no parable. 30 Nowe knowe wee that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should aske thee. By this we beleeue, that thou art come out from God. 31 Iesus answered them, Doe you beleeue nowe? 32 Beholde, the houre commeth, and is already come, that ye shalbe scattered euery man into his owne, and shall leaue me alone: but I am not alone: for the Father is with me. 33 These thinges haue I spoken vnto you, that in me ye might haue peace: in the world ye shall haue affliction, but be of good comfort: I haue ouercome the world.

    and

    John 17:1-26 GNV John 17:1 These things spake Iesus, and lift vp his eyes to heauen, and saide, Father, that houre is come: glorifie thy Sonne, that thy Sonne also may glorifie thee, 2 As thou hast giuen him power ouer all flesh, that he shoulde giue eternall life to all them that thou hast giuen him. 3 And this is life eternall, that they knowe thee to be the onely very God, and whom thou hast sent, Iesus Christ. 4 I haue glorified thee on the earth: I haue finished the worke which thou gauest me to doe. 5 And nowe glorifie me, thou Father, with thine owne selfe, with the glorie which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I haue declared thy Name vnto the men which thou gauest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gauest them me, and they haue kept thy worde. 7 Nowe they knowe that all things whatsoeuer thou hast giuen me, are of thee. 8 For I haue giuen vnto them the wordes which thou gauest me, and they haue receiued them, and haue knowen surely that I came out from thee, and haue beleeued that thou hast sent me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the worlde, but for them which thou hast giuen me: for they are thine. 10 And al mine are thine, and thine are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And nowe am I no more in the world, but these are in the worlde, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keepe them in thy Name, euen them whome thou hast giuen mee, that they may bee one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the worlde, I kept them in thy Name: those that thou gauest me, haue I kept, and none of them is lost, but the childe of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee, and these things speake I in the worlde, that they might haue my ioy fulfilled in themselues. 14 I haue giuen them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou keepe them from euill. 16 They are not of the worlde, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctifie them with thy trueth: thy word is trueth. 18 As thou diddest send me into the world, so haue I sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes sanctifie I my selfe, that they also may bee sanctified through the trueth. 20 I praie not for these alone, but for them also which shall beleeue in mee, through their woorde, 21 That they all may bee one, as thou, O Father, art in me, and I in thee: euen that they may be also one in vs, that the worlde may beleeue that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory that thou gauest me, I haue giuen them, that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them, and thou in mee, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the worlde may knowe that thou hast sent mee, and hast loued them, as thou hast loued me. 24 Father, I will that they which thou hast giuen me, be with me euen where I am, that they may beholde that my glorie, which thou hast giuen mee: for thou louedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the worlde also hath not knowen thee, but I haue knowen thee, and these haue knowen, that thou hast sent me. 26 And I haue declared vnto the thy Name, and will declare it, that the loue wherewith thou hast loued me, may be in them, and I in them.

    If this can support KJVOism then it also can support GBO1599ism!
     
  5. HankD

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    Actually and ironically they work against the KJVO.

    John 16:1-2
    These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
    They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

    Such did the Church of Rome and the Church of England to our spiritual brethren.

    HankD
     
  6. natters

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    I suspect Michelle's thinking (and I hope Michelle will clarify if I am wrong) is about the guidance of the Holy Spirit:

    John 16:13 "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. [14] He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

    Other than the possibility of her misusing this passage (as evidence that the Holy Spirit told her the KJV is exclusive and inerrant), I wish she would simply explain to us spiritually ignorant what she means, instead of keeping her "private interpretation", well, private.
     
  7. Johnv

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    Having now read these chapters and the surrounding chapters multiple times, I can find nothing whatsoever in them to support the idea that any specific translation in any specific language has sole exclusiveness in authority, inerrancy, or inspiration.

    None whatsoever.
     
  8. Ziggy

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    I noticed in Jn 16:17 (TR underlying the KJV) that the disciples, in immediately restating what Jesus had *just* said to them in Jn 16:16, *misquoted* him by *adding* (!) to Jesus' words ((UPAGW versus EGW UPAGW). :eek:

    Is there some lesson or principle involved here?
     
  9. psr.2

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    If you knew any scripture content you would understand that the KJB is the word of God but since all you do is argue versions God does not give you the light to see the truth.

    My KJB has every verse in it. Your mv's do not. The numbers are missing to prove they took something out.
    If it had been that KJB added it then they would not have left the number out.
    Just like Satan left out "freely" that God hath said.
    That should be scripture proof enough.
     
  10. natters

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    psr.2 said "The numbers are missing to prove they took something out."

    Took something out of what is traditional, yes. But not necessarily of what was originally written. The verse numbers indicate the traditional numbering, nothing more. They are not part of original scripture.

    As well, not all verse numberings are equal. Compared to some earlier versions, the KJV is "missing" some verse numbers too.
     
  11. David J

    David J
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    PSR.2

    No one has said that the KJV is not the Word of the Most High.

    Please define KJB!

    1. 1611 KJV
    2. 1762 KJV
    3. 1769 KJV
    3. 1873 KJV

    Things that are different are not the same according to KJVO dogma.

    Please tell me which KJV that you use so that I will know if you really are a KJVO or just a wannabe KJVO!
     
  12. psr.2

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    Wrong again guys. Better check your sources. They are so crooked that they have to screw their socks on.

    All of you mv's compare themselves to the KJB.
    They cannot come up with one that people will stay with so they come out with one and then revise and update it to death.
    Pity
     
  13. David J

    David J
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    psr.2
    Answer my simple question....
     
  14. psr.2

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    The question is not simple you are.
    Proverbs 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
    23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

    Hint...that's in the bible.

    Turn at reproof and God will show you his word the KJB.
     
  15. David J

    David J
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    Put away the slander and answer my question.
     
  16. HankD

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    BTW psr.2

    Would you happen to be Peter S. Ruckman Jr. ?

    HankD
     
  17. David J

    David J
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    Kinda sounds like Pope Peter! [​IMG]
     
  18. psr.2

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    Your just jealous because I have a bible.
     
  19. David J

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    That it. I officially refuse to talk to this troll any longer. I would suggest that we all shun this troll.
     
  20. natters

    natters
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    Don't worry about him, at this rate he won't be around much longer anyway.
     

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