John 19:39 "the first night" in the LXX

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 3, 2013.

  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Bone-Day part 2
    03 07 13

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/997082407/the-dry-bones-passover-haggadah-by-yaakov-kirschen
     
    #1 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 3, 2013
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    This explanation is not good.
    I’ll try to do it better:

    In Exodus 12:41
    the Hebrew, ‘geh’-tzem YOM’, “in the selfsame Bone-DAY”,
    is translated, ‘nuktos’, “in the NIGHT” in the LXX.

    This “night” = “Bone-Day” is further in Exodus 12:42 described
    as “this that [selfsame] night”, ‘ekeinehi heh nuks autehi’—
    which in 12:11,15,16 was “the FIRST day” of the seven
    that unleavened bread was to be eaten.

    In 12:17 this “FIRST day” of unleavened bread is “this selfsame BONE-Day”—in 12:41 also “this selfsame BONE-Day” or this selfsame Bone-“NIGHT” in the LXX.

    Therefore “this selfsame Bone-DAY”-“selfsame Bone-NIGHT” supplies the perfect equivalent for ‘nuktos to prohton’ in John 19:39, “the first night”.

    The “FIRST” and “BONE-Day” in the Torah, “the NIGHT” in the LXX corresponds to the identical “first day (of) no leavened bread”—Abib 15!

    This “first day ye shall eat unleavened bread” was “BONE-Day”, ‘geh’-tzem yom’ Exodus 12:17,41,51 Leviticus 23:14,21 Deuteronomy 32:48 Joshua 5:11—the day on which God led Israel out of Egypt—in the Gospels the day AFTER the crucifixion of Jesus and “the very selfsame BONE-Day” of his BURIAL!
     
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    John 19:39,

    “AFTER these things”

    [the Jews and Romans did, verses 31-33]

    “… JOSEPH besought Pilate … if he could take the body of Jesus away” John 19:38c

    “… then Pilate

    “ … asked the centurion if he were already dead.

    “… After the centurion had assured him that Jesus was in fact already dead,

    “… Pilate allowed it” John 19:38d “… and gave the body to Joseph” Mark 15:45b:

    “… THEN THEREFORE (Joseph) came” John 19:38e

    [to the crosses just in time before the soldiers could “take the body away” John 19:31d,34.]

    “… Then Pilate had the body delivered” Matthew 27:58b

    “… Then Joseph received / took away the body of Jesus” John 19:38e

    “… Then he bought fine linen” Mark 15:46a

    “… Then prostrating / letting the body lie down” Mark 15:46b Luke 23:53a

    “… having handled / treated the body Matthew 27:59a

    “… and wrapped it in a sheet of linen cloth Matthew 27:59b Mark 15:46c Luke 23:53b

    “… THEN came also Nicodemus” John 19:39a

    [Because Joseph somehow must have let Nicodemus know that he wanted to bury Jesus.]

    “… and having come” John 19:39b

    “… to him” John 19:39b

    [“him”— Joseph; to help him; Nicodemus did NOT ‘come to Jesus’!]

    “… THIS THAT VERY NIGHT THE FIRST” [night of passover’s Feast of Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:17,42].

    “THEY, therefore, handled / treated / embalmed the body of Jesus and bound it in (several more) sheets together with the spices … Nicodemus had brought.” John 19:40,(39c).



    John originally wrote in 19: 39, Greek from Nestle Interlinear,

    ‘ehlthen de kai Nikodehmos ho elthohn pros auton [Iohsehph] nuktos prohton pherohn migma smurnehs kai aloehs’,

    “Indeed came there also Nicodemus he having-come-bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes to him [Joseph] by NIGHT THAT [NIGHT] THE FIRST …” ---English, literal; word order, logical and chronological.

    Now synchronize and harmonize THIS, with John 3:2 or 7:50, Nicodemus bearing a mixture of myrrh and aloes coming to Jesus?!



    J317:

    The question is not whether some manuscripts have "Jesus" and others have "him." Nor is it a question of whether the verse contains variants. Of course that is true. The question is, what is the manuscript evidence for the inclusion of "Jesus"? And what difference does its inclusion make for the meaning of the verse?



    GE:

    You know very well inclusion of ‘Jesus’ makes all difference:

    “for the meaning of the verse”;

    for “THIS THAT NIGHT”;

    for the preparations made to the body for interment;

    for Jesus’ fulfilment of the passover;

    for the “ethics [Law] of the Jews” ---

    for everything the difference between Truth and error and worse than error.



    J317:

    But if you believe the words "by night" were not in the original, that is an entirely different matter. If that is what you think, let's talk about it.

    The relevancy of the phrase "Nicodemus, he that came to Jesus by night at the first," is that it clearly identifies this Nicodemus as the man who had talked with Jesus in John 3. So it is saying that this same person helped in the preparation of Jesus' body for burial. This adds meaning to the conversastion Jesus had with him.



    GE:

    The immediate relevancy being John chapter 3 where it describes Nicodemus' talk with Christ has no relevancy in the least. The relevancy here being Nicodemus also came there to where Joseph was busy preparing the body for to bury (it) according to the Jews ethics ....

    No; if there were more than one Nicodemus, then perhaps it might have been necessary for John to distinguish the Nicodemus that that night came to Joseph to help him. Like all the Gospel writers do when they speak of “Mary the Magdalene” and Matthew speaks of “the other, Mary”.

    But while John is the only Gospel writer who writes about Nicodemus, and there was only this Nicodemus who from the beginning of John’s Gospel played such a prominent role, it wasn’t necessary for John to identify him the far fetched way you suppose.

    But take account of the Greek, and it becomes evident how Nicodemus fitted in, in the sequence of event “THIS THE FIRST NIGHT” of Unleavened Bread Feast of the Jews. For it is written – in the Greek –,

    “Pilate allowed the body to be taken away.

    Therefore CAME JOSEPH, AND HE, took Jesus’ body.

    And indeed ALSO ARRIVED NICODEMUS, HE, having come to him [Joseph!] in THIS the first NIGHT [of Unleavened Bread Feast] BEARING a mixture of myrrh and aloes … SO THEY THEN prepared the body of Jesus and bound it in sheets.”

    Context satisfies context fully, smoothly, without interruption, without hitch: “CAME JOSEPH, AND HE … ALSO ARRIVED NICODEMUS, HE …”. And note “Nicodemus ARRIVED … HAVING COME … BEARING a mixture …” consecutive acts ONE LEADING TO THE NEXT through using PARTICIPLES one after the other.

    It’s simply impossible this story and these events could be put on hold so that an irrelevant reminiscence of three and a halve years ago could first be recounted.

    ‘Novum Testamentum Graece’ Wuerttumbergische Bibelanstalt Stuttgart’, ‘ton Iehsoun’ inserted, see which manuscript under John 19:39. See also George V. Wigram’s ‘Englishman’s Greek Concordance of the NT’, ‘Various readings’, ‘Iehsous’ John 19:39.

    If you still don’t want to believe me, you’ll have to go the museum where the manuscripts are kept. It may be the British Museum … I wouldn’t know. But if you have a dislike in facts and are of a certain persuasion, of course nothing will be good enough, not even IMMEDIATE RELEVANCY.

    The immediate relevancy being “John chapter 3 where it describes Nicodemus' talk with Christ” has no relevancy in the least. The relevancy here being “Nicodemus also came there …” to where Joseph was busy “preparing” the body “for to bury (it) according to the Jews’ ethics” or the Jews’ RELEVANT, passover-Scriptures, the most important, Exodus 12 to 14 TO WHICH John makes UNDENIABLE reference with “THIS FIRST NIGHT” ---“THIS THAT NIGHT TO BE SOLEMNLY OBSERVED” = “BONE-DAY-NIGHT”—seen above—the night-beginning of the fifteenth day of the First Month, “FIRST day unleavened bread” and “in between sabbath … great day sabbath”, second of the “three days thick darkness” of Jesus’ Passover-of-Yahweh-SUFFERING”.

    The “difference” it makes is the difference between the PURE Written Word of God and a CORRUPTION of it.

    For Sunday-worshippers the “difference” came in very handy to draw the attention away from which of the “three days” it actually was : because the “BONE-day” of the “three days” is the death-knell of a Sunday’s resurrection.

    O what does it matter to someone or two persons who take preference to another ‘source’ than the dry and dead letter of the Law …
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    J317:

    The reason we're discussing John 19: 39 is that you said the variants in this verse are important because they change doctrine.
    My question to you is, how do these variants in this verse change anything of doctrinal significance? There are many differences among the thousands of NT manuscripts. Do you believe each of them corrupts the PURE Written Word? If not, why do you believe this particular variant is a corruption?



    GE:

    .... the BONE-day of the three days is the death-knell of a Sundays resurrection.



    J317:

    Gerhard, there are a number of "death-knells" for a Sabbath resurrection, but one of the most powerful "death-knell" is the truth of Ellen White's statement in Desire of Ages, page 785, 786:

    “Christ arose from the dead as the first fruits of those that slept. He was the antitype of the wave sheaf, and His resurrection took place on the very day when the wave sheaf was to be presented before the Lord.”

    QUESTION: On which day was the wave sheaf presented before the Lord?
    Lev. 23: 9-15 contains the answer:
    Leviticus 23:15
    "You shall count seven full weeks from the day after the Sabbath, from the day that you brought the sheaf of the wave offering."



    GE:

    Sorry, nothing in your quote from Mrs White suggests—what states—a Sunday resurrection.

    THEN came also Nicodemus John 19:39a
    [Because Joseph somehow must have let Nicodemus know that he wanted to bury Jesus.]

    and having come John 19:39b

    to him John 19:39b

    him & Joseph; to help him; NOT to Jesus

    THIS THAT VERY NIGHT THE FIRST, 'elthohn pros auton NUKTOS TO PROHTON' [night of passover’s Feast of Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:17,42, “BONE-DAY-NIGHT” LXX verse 41].



    J317:

    I agree with you that Joseph had communicated with Nicodemus the fact that he wanted to bury Jesus. But there's no valid evidence that the words, "had come to him (or "to Jesus") by night at the first," is a reference to Exodus 12: 17, 42. (I've given a translation of those words that agrees with the literal translations of Robert Young and Rotherham, as well as just about every translation in the English language.)



    GE:

    It’s not, <"had come … at the first">.

    “First” is not adverbial, <came first>; it is adjectival, “First Night”, with Article, “the First [Night-of-unleavened-bread]”.

    Therefore,

    “Nikodemus came [‘ehlthen’] … coming [‘elthohn’] in the night [‘nuktos’] … bearing / bringing [‘pherohn’] mixture of myrrh”.

    Was Nicodemus “bearing myrrh when he came to Jesus”? No! “Nicodemus was bearing myrrh when he came to him”—JOSEPH, yes!

    Therefore,

    “Nicodemus in-the-night [‘nuktos’], THE FIRST (Neuter Accusative the Noun Object ‘To Prohton’ as such) came.”

    “Nicodemus came (This That Selfsame) The First (Bone-Day-) Night (of unleavened bread) to him (Joseph).”

    “Nicodemus came” or “arrived” at Joseph after Joseph had the evening of the early night, procured the body.

    The Accusative therefore also means that “Nicodemus came against the (mid)Night-of-The First-Night (of unleavened bread).”

    THEY, thereafter, handled / treated / embalmed the body of Jesus and bound it in (several more) sheets together with the spices Nicodemus had brought. John 19:40,(39c).

    The relevancy here being Nicodemus also came there to where Joseph was busy preparing the body for to bury (it) according to the Jews’ ethics or the Jews’ RELEVANT, passover-Scriptures, the most important, Exodus 12 to 14 TO WHICH John makes UNDENIABLE reference with “THIS FIRST NIGHT”—“NIGHT TO BE SOLEMNLY OBSERVED”—its night-beginning, the fifteenth day of the First Month.



    J317:

    While I agree with you that Christ fulfilled the typical Passover, I don't believe the manuscript evidence offers support for it in John 19: 39, 40. Christ's fulfillment of the Passover isn't based on a certain odd translation or construction of John 19: 39, 40, such as you've given it.

    Evidence for Christ's being the antitype of the Passover is found just as well in the standard translations of that verse, such as given by the KJV or NIV or NASB or RSV or English Standard Version, etc. We don't depend on that particular verse but on the entire Scriptures, which teach that Christ was the fulfillment of all the feasts, including the Passover.



    GE:

    Sure! There are many more and much stronger reasons. Jesus’ Bone-Day does not depend on just John 19:39’s original without the word ‘Jesus’.

    Many!



    J317:

    We don't need to twist the Scriptures or make errors in

    translation in order to support the truth. That is what the Mormons have done in the "Inspired Translation" of Joseph Smith and it is what the Watchtower organization has done in the New World Translation.

    Are you sure you mean John 19: 39? I fail to see any differences that could be described as false doctrine.



    GE:

    … not “described as false doctrine” but ascribed to, false – to very false – doctrine, the doctrine of a Friday Crucifixion AND Burial and a Sunday morning resurrection.

    The whole idea – centuries ago already – with the insertion of ‘Jesus’, was, as I said, to eliminate the second of the “three days”, the Burial-day that began in Mark 15:42 Matthew 27:57 John 19:31,38 Luke 23:50 and began ending in John 19:42 and Luke 23:54-56.



    J317:

    KJV (based on the TR)--John 19:39

    And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound* weight.

    ESV (based on the Critical Text): John 19:39

    Nicodemus also, who earlier had come to Jesus by night, came bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds* in weight.

    The only differences in the Greek between the TR and the CT at John 19: 39 is that the CT has auton (him) in place of ton iesoun (Jesus), and hosei (about) in place of hos (about).

    Many of the translations of the CT supply the name Jesus so that they are identical to the translation of the TR except for the weight of the myrrh and aloes.

    *The difference in the weight of the myrrh and aloes is not due to the Greek text but to the way they are calculated by the translator. Both the TR and the CT read litras hekaton.<<



    GE:

    John 19:39,

    “AFTER these things”

    [the Jews and Romans did, verses 31-33]

    “… JOSEPH besought Pilate … if he could take the body of Jesus away” John 19:38c

    “… then Pilate

    “ … asked the centurion if he were already dead.

    “… After the centurion had assured him that Jesus was in fact already dead,

    “… Pilate allowed it” John 19:38d “… and gave the body to Joseph” Mark 15:45b:

    “… THEN THEREFORE (Joseph) came” John 19:38e

    [to the crosses just in time before the soldiers could “take the body away” John 19:31d,34.]

    “… Then Pilate had the body delivered” Matthew 27:58b

    “… Then Joseph received / took away the body of Jesus” John 19:38e

    “… Then he bought fine linen” Mark 15:46a

    “… Then prostrating / letting the body lie down” Mark 15:46b Luke 23:53a

    “… having handled / treated the body Matthew 27:59a

    “… and wrapped it in a sheet of linen cloth Matthew 27:59b Mark 15:46c Luke 23:53b

    “… THEN came also Nicodemus” John 19:39a

    [Because Joseph somehow must have let Nicodemus know that he wanted to bury Jesus.]

    “… and having come” John 19:39b

    “… to him” John 19:39b

    [“him”— Joseph; to help him; NOT ‘to Jesus’!]

    “… THIS THAT VERY NIGHT THE FIRST”, 'elthohn pros auton NUKTOS TO PROHTON'

    [night of passover’s Feast of Unleavened Bread Exodus 12:17,42]

    “… THEY, therefore, handled / treated / embalmed the body of Jesus and bound it in (several more) sheets together with the spices … Nicodemus had brought.” John 19:40,(39c).

    Do you see, John317, “THIS THAT VERY SELFSAME BONE-DAY”, its NIGHT, in Exodus 12:17,42 ---which especially modern translations incinerate--- here in John 19:39 and where it began with ‘Joseph’ who undertook to bury “that which remained”, “the body of Jesus”, like Moses undertook to take the bones of Joseph in his ‘most holy place’, the ‘ark’ of his “COFFIN” out of Egypt?
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    “The FIRST” of “seven NIGHTS-of-Unleavened-Bread”

    ‘nuktos to prohton’ …
    “FIRST” of “seven NIGHTS-of-Unleavened-BREAD”—
    unleavened bread EATEN “seven days”—
    “seven DAYS—from after EVENING to before evening”—
    “The First” of “seven NIGHTS-of-Unleavened-Bread”—
    “First NIGHT”, “in the night”, ‘nuktos’—
    “… at the First-BONE-Day-Feast-Night”, ‘to prohton’—

    John originally wrote in 19: 39, Greek from Nestle Interlinear,
    ‘ehlthen de kai Nikodehmos ho elthohn pros auton [Iohsehph] nuktos prohton pherohn migma smurnehs kai aloehs’.

    “Then CAME also Nicodemus…” [‘EHLTHEN’, ‘de kai Nikodehmos’]
    Joseph worked alone before Nicodemus arrived.

    “… Nicodemus came … he having HAD come to him (Joseph) in The Night…” [‘ehlthen Nikodehmos … ELTHOHN Nuktos pros auton (Iohsehph)’]…
    Nicodemus came “to him”, Joseph, at passover meal earlier before “the Jews asked Pilate” John 19:31a, and after it “already had become evening” Mark15:42 Matthew 27:57.

    “… Nicodemus came … carrying / bringing myrrh.” [‘ehlthen … pherohn migma smurnehs’]

    “Nicodemus … who having had come (earlier) to him (Joseph) The Night The First” [‘Nuktos-To-Prohton’—“First-Night-of-Unleavened-Bread-Eat”—‘Heh Nuks To Prohton Adzumohn’.]

    “… as is the Law-Custom-Ethics of the Jews TO BURY…”, “ye shall keep this Commandment …” John 19:49b Exodus 12:17a.
    ‘Nuktos-To-Prohton’, “in The Night”: “The First”-and-“BONE-Day-NIGHT-of-Unleavened-Bread-Eat” [‘nuktos’: ‘Heh Nuks To Prohton Adzumohn’].

    “Beginning the day from evening until evening ye shall on this day [‘tehi hehmerai tautehi’] make an ordinance (to) keep this day!” [‘poiehsete tehn hehmeran tautehn’] Exodus 18,17,
    ‘Tehn Hehmeran Tautehn’ in the Hebrew in verse 17, is “this selfsame BONE Day”, the “BONE-Day” which the LXX in verse 41 renders with “NUKTOS”, “in the NIGHT”—“in the BONE-Day-NIGHT’ therefore!

    “And they shall eat the flesh IN THIS NIGHT AND UNLEAVENED BREAD.” 12:8. “This / That Night is The Lord’s Passover.” 12:11/12.
    LXX, 12:15,
    “Seven days ye shall eat unleavened bread … from the FIRST Day … the FIRST Day shall be called holy.” [‘apo tehs Hehmeras Tehs PROHTEHS … heh Hehmera heh PROHTEH klehthehsetai hagia’]

    LXX, Exodus12:14,
    “It shall be The Day ye shall make FEAST to the Lord” from the Hebrew, “Ye shall observe Unleavened Bread in this selfsame BONE-DAY.”
    Joseph undertook in obedience to the passover-Scriptures that “no BONE of Him shall be broken or severed”, “in the NIGHT THE FIRST [Selfsame-BONE-Day-] NIGHT”, “BONE-Day FEAST” therefore!
    And John specifically mentioned the Custom-Law of the passover that no bone of the passover sacrifice—in Jesus’ case of having fulfilled that prophecy—would be broken or severed.
    “Nicodemus also” must have followed after that “Law-Custom-Ethics of the Jews”, while he obeyed the passover’s “BONE-Day-NIGHT’S” and “FEAST’S”, “Commandment”.

    Mark how Joseph
    “UPON THE TOP OF HIS STAFF” LIKE JESUS ON THE CROSS, “… was DYING”, and “DYING blessed the sons of Joseph and worshipped”—that is, obeyed the Law of the Passover of Yahweh. Verse 21.
    Now JUST SO,
    “Joseph BY FAITH WHEN HE DIED, made mention of the DEPARTING of the children of Israel and gave COMMANDMENT concerning his BONES.” Hebrews 11:22.
    Joseph and Nicodemus obeyed prophecy—THIS VERY PROPHECY of “BONE-Day”—“The FIRST-BONE-Day-NIGHT-FEAST” on which Israel ate “unleavened bread” and “departed from Egypt”.

    We see in verse 11 of Hebrews 11 “this that FIRST-BONE-NIGHT” being fulfilled by Jesus “the very first day” of his final passover-SUFFERING through anguish of soul “IN the NIGHT” and, anguish of soul and body “in the DAY”, “That Selfsame”, “BONE-Day” and “FIRST Day”, “GEH’-TSEM Yom” of “FIRST-Day’s”, “FEAST” Exodus 12:14 : IN the CHRIST of God BOTH the fourteenth and fifteenth days of the Passover-of-Yahweh!
    But then “in the NIGHT, this, that Selfsame BONE-Day-FEAST-NIGHT”, “Joseph came … and also Nicodemus … IN THE NIGHT, FIRST BONE-Day NIGHT”—IN ISRAEL’S HISTORY: the “BONE-Day” of their “DEPARTING” from Egypt, “the fifteenth day of the First Month the “FIRST-Unleavened-Bread-BONE-Day-NIGHT”, “The FIRST-” and “FEAST-NIGHT-of-BONE-Day”—‘to prohton’—‘nuktos to prohton’ “FIRST” of “seven NIGHTS-of-Unleavened-Bread” eaten “from EVENING until evening”. Cf. John 18:28, 19:31,38.

    Another significant and most precious Scripture in its fulfilment in “Christ our Passover”, is Isaiah 53.
    “He prepared his grave with the wicked” through passover-SUFFERING on, and of, “the very first day” that “they KILLED the passover”. “But IN HIS DEATH He was with the rich” “in this that Selfsame FIRST-BONE-Day-NIGHT”.
    Joseph and Nicodemus both were rich and esteemed. They, “in this that Selfsame BONE-Day-FIRST-NIGHT”, “prepared the body of Jesus; and they, “in this that Selfsame FIRST-BONE-DAY” afterwards, BURIED Jesus’ body in a “new grave” of “the rich”.

    Thus Christ even in death’s Suffering and in death’s Resting,
    obeyed “COMMANDMENT concerning his BONES”—as
    “COMMANDMENT concerning his …
    “BONES”, Heb 11:22 Exodus 13:19
    “BONE-DAY”, Exodus 12:17,51; 13:4
    “BONE-DAY-FEAST”, Ex.12:14, Nu.28:17 LXX Ex.12:14
    “BONE-Day-FIRST-Day-NIGHT of Unleavened Bread”, Ex.12:15b,16 Lev.23: 7 Nu. 28:18 [LXX ‘hehmera heh prohteh’]
    “BONE-Day-NIGHT”, Exodus 12:12,42 LXX Exodus 12:41
    “BONE-DAY … from EVENING until evening day”, LXX Exodus 12:18

    Why doubt John 19:39 that
    “Nicodemus came to (Joseph)
    AT-THE-FIRST=BONE-DAY=NIGHT=FEAST”
    of-the-Passover-of-Yahweh, “in the NIGHT”, ‘nuktos’, “the FIRST night” of and “THAT DAY great-day-sabbath” John 19:31—“the fifteenth day of the First Month”, Jesus’ PASSOVER-BURIAL-BONE-DAY on the Sixth Day of the week “The Preparation which is The Fore-Sabbath” that had begun on and with and in “the evening” “in (its) NIGHT”—AFTER He was killed and AFTER the DAY that He was killed on?!
    Because that would mean Jesus suffered, was crucified and killed BEFORE it, IS THAT WHY we won’t accept it or faithfully translate it?
    Never!

     
  6. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    “this (selfsame) first NIGHT” in the LXX in Exodus 12:41,42.

    In Exodus 12:41
    the Hebrew, ‘geh’-tzem YOM’, “in the selfsame Bone-DAY”,
    is translated, ‘nuktos’, “in the NIGHT” in the LXX.

    This “night” = “Bone-Day” is further in Exodus 12:42 described
    as “this that [selfsame] night”, ‘ekeinehi heh nuks autehi’—
    which in 12:11,15,16 was “the FIRST day” of the seven
    that unleavened bread was to be eaten.

    In 12:17 this “FIRST day” of unleavened bread is “this selfsame BONE-Day”—in 12:41 also “this selfsame BONE-Day” or this selfsame Bone-“NIGHT” in the LXX.

    Therefore “this selfsame Bone-DAY”-“selfsame Bone-NIGHT” supplies the perfect equivalent for ‘nuktos to prohton’ in John 19:39, “the first night”.

    The “FIRST” and “BONE-Day” in the Torah, “the NIGHT” in the LXX corresponds to the identical “first day (of) no leavened bread”—Abib 15!

    This “first day ye shall eat unleavened bread” was “BONE-Day”, ‘geh’-tzem yom’ Exodus 12:17,41,51 Leviticus 23:14,21 Deuteronomy 32:48 Joshua 5:11—the day on which God led Israel out of Egypt—in the Gospels the day AFTER the crucifixion of Jesus and “the very selfsame BONE-Day” of his BURIAL!

    Present day Jews still ‘remember’ of “three days thick darkness”, “this that Bone-Day-NIGHT”, “of great day sabbath”, “to be solemnly observed”.

    “The Law of the Passover”, ‘Ho Nomos tou Pascha’ LXX Exodus 12:43,
    “This-That-NIGHT-of-the-Passover-to-be-Observed”, ‘ekeineh heh nuks auteh prophulakeh Kuriohi’, 12:42,
    “on This Day will I bring you out”, “the Selfsame-BONE-Day”—“IN THIS NIGHT”, ‘NUKTOS’ LXX 12:41,
    “BONE-Day”, in the Torah—“NIGHT” in the LXX!

    Note the Cases,
    Torah,
    “This day ye shall keep a feast” = “the first day ye shall eat unleavened bread” 12:14 = 15 = “this Selfsame-BONE-Day” 12:17
    = LXX,
    12:14,
    “this-the-day”, ‘heh hemera auteh’—Nominative
    = 12:15 [15b in Torah],
    “from this-the-FIRST-day”, ‘pahs hos an phagehi apo tehs hehmeras tehs PROHTEHS’—Genitive
    = 12:17a,
    “I will bring you out on this very [first] day”, ‘eksaksoh en tehi hehmerai tautehi [tehi prohtehi]’—Dative
    = 12:17b,
    “Ye shall make this day law”, ‘poiehsete nommon tehn hehmeran tautehn’—Accusative
    = Torah 12:41,
    “even the selfsame BONE-Day all went out”
    = LXX 12:41,
    “came out by NIGHT”, ‘NUKTOS’—Genitive
    = LXX 12:42a,
    “a watch is this that very night”, ‘ekeineh heh nuks auteh’—Nominative
    = Torah 12:42,
    “this that night of the LORD to be observed”
    = LXX 12:51,
    “in this that same day”, ‘en tehi hehmerai ekeinehi’—Dative
    = Torah,
    “the selfsame BONE-Day” no matter which Case.

    Whether Cases are relevant or not,
    “Nicodemus who came to him (Joseph of Arimathea) BY NIGHT, came to him having been at The FIRST [Night-of-Unleavened-Bread-Feast’]”.
    “Nicodemus came to him (Joseph) IN THE NIGHT bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloe … in order TO BURY the body of Jesus according to the Custom(-of-Torah) of the Jews.”

    The Torah or passover-Scriptures institutionalised the “BONE-Day” and “This That Night of the LORD” of it, a “Law”, “an ordinance”, to “Feast on the fifteenth day of the First Month The First Day ye shall Eat Unleavened Bread.”

    So “Nicodemus came in the NIGHT”—“The First Night” on the “BONE-day” of the passover.
    “Nicodemus came to him (Joseph)”, and “they”, then “prepared the body … to bury it” … which Lawful “Custom” they had finished on “that selfsame BONE-Day”—“the fifteenth day of the First Month”.
    “Being THAT DAY [KJV] – The Preparation – still as the Sabbath began to draw near”, “Joseph had rolled the stone into the door of the grave” and “had gone home”. “And also the women…”
    “And THAT DAY” of Christ’s last passover “was…” “BONE-Day…” “by NIGHT…”, “on the FIRST day no leavened bread shall be eaten”.
     
    #6 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
  7. targus

    targus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    8,459
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oh come on now! :rolleyes:

    Doesn't this qualify as spamming the board?
     
  8. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    It qualifies as straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel! Exodus 11-12 clearly demonstrate that the day they ate the passover and left Egypt was the 14th not the 15th. In addition, the 15 was a special (high) Sabbath and he was buried prior to the evening of this Sabbath.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Jul 8, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 8, 2013
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    To expose corruption of God’s Word as well as its corruptors, is become straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel. In the meantime it is the corruptor of the Scriptures who at one ferocious swindling snap swallows camel with gnat, who is the spammer, incessantly spamming over every page of Holy Writ ever printed and spread abroad, his regurgitated camel with gnat.

    But I’ll make it easy for you, big boy, just QUOTE here on Baptist Board’s forum page, THIS, YOUR arrogation, <<Exodus 11-12 clearly demonstrate that the day they ate the passover and left Egypt was the 14th not the 15th.>>
    You quote it here! EXPOSE YOURSELF, YOUR CHARACTER AND YOUR IGNORANCE, NOW!

     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    In the meantime read
    Exodus 12:14
    "a FEAST", "this selfsame BONE-Day I BROUGHT YOU OUT", “the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month” …

    … in Numbers 33:3,

    “They departed from Rameses [first point IN Egypt FROM which “they departed…] …in the First Month on the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month.”

    Numbers 28:16,17,
    In the fourteenth day of the First Month is the passover of the LORD KILLED
    And in the FIFTEENTH day of this month is the FEAST.”

    The “FEAST” “the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month” Numbers 28:16,17, never <<was in addition>>; it was MOVED FROM the “FEAST” “the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month” Exodus 12:14, ONTO “the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month”.

    And “the day they DEPARTED from Rameses” in Egypt and “went OUT of Egypt” its DATE, was CHANGED, FROM “the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month” Exodus 12:17, TO, “the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month”.

    THUS, clearly, Exodus 12 – 13, demonstrates and PROVES that the day they ate the passover and left Egypt was the 14th AS WELL AS the 15th.

    Now go READ Exodus 12 to 13 and SEE!

    See WHY and HOW “SEVEN days [only] ye shall eat unleavened bread”, YET, “on the fourteenth day ye shall eat unleavened bread UNTIL the ONE AND TWENTIETH day of the month in its night.”

    And see HOW and WHY “seven days there shall be NO LEAVEN in your houses”—BECAUSE there was “the VERY / FIRST first day ye shall PUT OUT LEAVEN out of your houses”, “the fourteenth day of the First Month”.

    And see HOW and WHY “SEVEN days there shall be no leaven in your houses”—BECAUSE, BEFORE, “FROM the first day (“the fifteenth day of the First Month” that) they ATE unleavened bread until the seventh day”, there was “the VERY / FIRST, first day ye shall PUT OUT LEAVEN out of your houses”.

    Now go READ Exodus 12 to 13 and SEE Exodus dates TWO days both their TWO “nights” and their TWO “days”, THE SAME DATE: “the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month”—an enigma only explainable in the light of Jesus Christ’s FULFILMENT of its prophecy “concerning Him”.

     
    #10 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2013
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    They ate the passover on the fourteenth not the fifteenth.

    Ex. 11: 4 ¶ And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

    Ex. 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

    Ex. 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

    Ex. 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

    Ex. 12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day of the month at even.
    19 Seven days shall there be no leaven found in your houses: for whosoever eateth that which is leavened, even that soul shall be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he be a stranger, or born in the land.


    The Lord passed through (passover) at midnight on the 14th day of the first month. They left Egypt on the 14th day of the first month shortly after midnight. The fourteenth day of the month was also to be the first day of unleavened bread (Ex. 12:18)
     
  12. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3


    Yes, <<They ate the passover on the fourteenth...>> ONCE! And yes, <<They ate the passover on the fourteenth not the fifteenth>> ONCE before ever after.
    They ate the passover on the fourteenth not the fifteenth IN Egypt and IN Rameses --- BEFORE MIDNIGHT 12:8-9 et al.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:17, I brought you OUT.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:37, “they journeyed to Succot” Place of the Hollow Rock.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:41,42 “it came to pass … EVEN THE SELFSAME BONE-DAY THAT all the hosts of the LORD went OUT --- SECOND night --- THIS IS THE NIGHT TO BE OBSERVED for having brought them OUT FROM Egypt, THIS IS THAT NIGHT OF THE LORD TO BE OBSERVED” stressed, having been said a SECOND time!

    Now can this night and this day which here has started AFTER the day and night before it which was “the fourteenth day of the First Month” still be the same day or the same date?!

    No, because 12:41,42 tells of the events of the SECOND NIGHT which still is called by the SAME NAME FOR IT WHICH IS “BONE-DAY” but its EVENTS NO MORE!
    This SECOND “first day” <CLEARLY> had become the “DAY to be OBSERVED” : a “FEAST”!

    Friends, HERE, in verse 41, the LXX translates the “BONE-Day”, a “FEAST”!!

    It was the day AFTER “the fourteenth day of the First Month”—it was “the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month!
    But EXODUS has ONLY the DATE of “the FOURTEENTH day of the First Month for it!

    Therefore, do verses 41,42 explain 12:18 why unleavened bread had to be EATEN “from the fourteenth day … until the one and twentieth day” … “SEVEN days” “ye shall EAT unleavened bread”. The TWO nights and TWO days of the goings OUT of the Israelites were DATED as ONE day only in Exodus.

    And THIS – this ONLY – explains WHY and HOW “the day they always had to KILL the passover (sacrifice) on” Mark 14:12,17 Matthew 26:17,20 Luke 22:7,14 John 13:1,31 1Corinthians 11:23 NEVER, is called a, or, ‘the’, “Feast” again after Exodus 12:14!

    And THIS – this ONLY – explains WHY and HOW John in 13:1 defines “the day they always had to KILL the passover (sacrifice) on” as “the day BEFORE the Feast” and thought the disciples in THAT “NIGHT” that Judas went out to buy things “FOR, the Feast-day” while THAT “NIGHT” --- JUST LIKE AT THE FIRST EVER passover --- was not yet “the Feast-day” but was STILL “ the fourteenth day” : “the “HEAD / FIRST / VERY first day” the Jews had to “REMOVE LEAVEN” and the LIFE of the Passover Sacrifice on.

    GOD predetermined it, so that as soon as Israel had left out of Egypt and had ENTERED INTO the Promised Land, “Israel kept = killed the passover on the FOURTEENTH day of the month mid-afternoon and they did EAT on the NEXT day AFTER the passover (was sacrificed) UNLEAVENED cakes IN THE SELFSAME-BONE-day … and the manna ceased the next morning it did not fall.”

    In all of Israel’s history they “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES” THE LAW OF THE PASSOVER OF YAHWEH, ATE the passover “Feast”, “on the FIFTEENTH day”, “the day AFTER they always had to kill the passover”. Leviticus 23:6 Numbers 28:17.





     
    #12 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 9, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 9, 2013
  13. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207


    Thus the fourteenth is the "same day still" - period!

    Did you fail to carefully read Exodus 12:14????????

    Ex. 12:14 And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever.

    There was no change of day! Your scriptural gymnastics cannot possibly harmonize with Ex. 12:14 and "THIS DAY" observed as given "for ever."


    You forget that the command was to observe this same day - 14th - as describe IN ALL YOUR GENERATIONS - period or did you not read that???? So much for your scriptural gymnastics to change it to another day.
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    It's you who do not want to but refuse to read the whole two chapters, carefully. or better, prepared to accept that which is contrary your own almighty <everlasting forever> opinion.

    And don't accuse me FALSELY of EVER having claimed the fourteenth changed to the fifteenth. Because I never said such a thing.
    I ---no, not I, but Exodus 12-13 itself as well as the rest of all the Scriptures--- say the TWO-IN-ONE FULL days DATED ---DATED ONE day--- "the fourteenth", CHANGED, into being DATED the fourteenth AND the fifteenth, REAL, DAYS, of the month.
    The fourteenth STAYED the fourteenth; the "FEAST" went over onto the fifteenth.

    All the Scriptures prove it;
    All real Christian scholars accept it;
    All Judaism teaches it.

    COMMON SENSE demands it.

    Again, YOU go read Exodus 12:41,42 <carefully> the FOLLOWING night AFTER the night of verse 14, the SECOND night mentioned in chapters 12-13, AND SECOND day called the "BONE-day" being defined "the FEAST" and in the LXX even translated, "Feast"--"NIGHT"-the-FEAST-"NIGHT".

    And don't discard the SCRIPTURES against you, that explicitly in clearest possible words declare the first night that unleavened bread was EATEN was "the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month".

    BONE-day of Jesus' last passover shall destroy your false anti-Christ DOGMA of a Sunday's Resurrection of Christ!

    FEAR! Pray the mountains to cover you before the face of Him who is coming again on HIS, day of Resurrection from the dead, "SABBATH'S"!


     
    #14 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2013
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gerhard Ebersoehn


    Yes, <<They ate the passover on the fourteenth...>> ONCE! And yes, <<They ate the passover on the fourteenth not the fifteenth>> ONCE before ever after.
    They ate the passover on the fourteenth not the fifteenth IN Egypt and IN Rameses --- BEFORE MIDNIGHT 12:8-9 et al.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:17, I brought you OUT.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:37, “they journeyed to Succot” Place of the Hollow Rock.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:41,42 “it came to pass … EVEN THE SELFSAME

    I failed to read MYSELF carefully.

    I only now notice it, I wrote,

    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:17, I brought you OUT.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:37, “they journeyed to Succot” Place of the Hollow Rock.
    THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:41,42 “it came to pass … EVEN THE SELFSAME


    This, : THE SAME DAY STILL --- 12:41,42 “it came to pass … EVEN THE SELFSAME BONE-day ...

    COULD BE WRONG!

    Och ja, it depends from which perspective one looks at it.



    Anyhow, I apologise!

    Please make it read,

    But the NEXT DAY : "BONE-day" --- 12:41,42 “it came to pass …" because ...

    ... the English of the KJV, "even the selfsame day" is the translation of the Hebrew 'geh'-tzem yom' per se.
     
    #15 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207


    No one denies what begins on the fourteenth continues for several days not just the next day! But that does not make the fourteenth and the fifteenth ONE AND THE SAME day - forget it!
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3

    You forget it; I never thought or wrote it!

    Day and date are different things.
     
  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,183
    Likes Received:
    207
    Yes they are and it is the day the fourteenth day that is to be remembered as observed from generation to generation for ever.
     
  19. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    8,870
    Likes Received:
    3
    verse 14, "This day" is COMMANDED for what that very night would still happen.

    "IT CAME TO PASS that at MIDNIGHT [as before commanded] the LORD smote the firstborn … Pharaoh told Moses to go … and the people took their dough and … DID ACCORDING TO THE WORD [COMMAND] and Israel JOURNEYED FROM Rameses to Succoth …
    39 … they WERE THRUST OUT OF EGYPT….
    41 At the END of the 430 years on the BONE-DAY it happened that ALL went OUT ... THIS IS THAT NIGHT TO BE OBSERVED IT IS A NIGHT TO BE MUCH OBSERVED UNTO THE LORD FOR HAVING BROUGHT THEM OUT.”

    12:14 contains COMMAND BEFORE they would leave, TO GO feast.
    “THIS—past—day, fourteenth, must be a memorial.
    It has been a ‘memorial’ for Israel ever since; a memorial of the KILLING of the sacrifice; a “Feast-day”, no doubt. Till today the whole passover season of eight days is kept a memorial-feast of the PAST day “they KILLED the passover”.

    “They ate the sacrifice // flesh with unleavened bread” “THIS DAY”, verses 8 and 14. they ate “in the NIGHT”.

    It is only possible the past day and the following night are dated together “the fourteenth day” if it is a sunrise to sunrise day.
    Egyptians reckoned days sunrise to sunrise. Israel was IN, Egypt BEFORE they had left, “the fourteenth day of the First Month its DAY first and its NIGHT last!

    But from that Israel was OUT, the Divine reckoning according to God’s CREATION of days, FIRST the darkness AFTERWARDS the daylight, was valid. So after Israel the previous halve-a-night and all daylight long were “GOING OUT OF EGYPT”, GOD’S NEW DAY AND NEW ERA after “the end of the 430 years” were full, BEGAN, with its EVENING after sunset. Now it was the FIFTEENTH day of the First Month.

    Now one may understand Exodus 12:41,42 and “the first day they ate unleavened bread”. Because it was the SECOND “first day” and the day AFTER, “the HEAD first day ye shall REMOVE LEAVEN” on the fourteenth day.

    Now one may also understand 12:18, “seven days unleavened bread … from the fourteenth until the ONE and twentieth day” = 8 days!


     
    #19 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 11, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2013

Share This Page

Loading...