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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by StraightAndNarrow, Jul 1, 2006.
This poll has to do with the relevance of John 3:16 to salvation.
i didn't vote. cause there was no middle answer.
i believe its important. but i dont believe its has little or no importance. i dont believe its VERY important.
i wouldnt use the verse to witness to someone.
Why not? Jesus used it for Nicodemus. I realize he said more, but why not use it, along with other verses?
But, he did not use it with Nicodemus for how to be saved, did he?
I voted, but I agree with Gekko that there should have been a middle answer, because this is not a verse that should be used in witnessing.
I would say that John 3:16 is the most oft used verse in witnessing to others. In short it is the gospel in a nutshell. Yes, definitely, I would use it.
Yes, of course he did. The whole passage is about being born again (from above) - spiritual regeneration. In verse 16, Jesus gives the overview of why this happened, because God loved the world and sent Jesus so that those who believe in him would have eternal life. How can you say this is not about salvation??
i would use the verse. but much later on in the conversations.
if i used the verse right away - before anything else - then i dont believe that's right.
using a verse like John 3:16 to show God's love to everybody - before you speak about anything else to the person in a witnessing situation - is wrong. doing that supports modern evangelism.
i dont agree with modern evangelism which says that "Jesus will give you joy, peace happiness and lasting fulfillment" - just saying that to a person is giving them false hope.
but if i had a choice. i would not choose john 3:16 in a witnessing experience. which i do have a choice. so i dont use it.
John 3:16 for salvation
I like to quote the verse very slowly in witnessing for salvation.
" For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
I then like to ask the person, do you believe God was lying when he said that? If not are you now willing to accept the statement as the absolute truth from Almighty God ?
I think this version is very easy to use and the results are truly amazing.
I don't know what you mean by "modern evangelism," it sounds like a broad generalization to me.
I don't witness by telling people everything will be rosy! In fact, my life has been harder since becoming a Christian. But using Jn 3.16 is not telling anyone life is going to be rosy. It is merely expressing a truth that Jesus himself gave.
And, by the way, feeling God's love for me is how I was drawn to Christ. I also know other testimonies about how how God's love drew people to Christ. So don't knock it.
There isn't just one way that people are drawn to Christ and saved.
modern evangelism is how alot of churches are like today.
think about it. 80-90% of professions of faith are "backsliders" - 80-90% of the professions of faith - fall away.
think about why that is.
"Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
then look at 1corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."
preaching of the cross - preaching of God's love for us - is to them that perish - foolishness. they dont understand it.
why dont they understand it? well. they dont understand why Jesus died on the cross. ok. tell them Jesus died for their sins. and that sin is "missing the mark"
tell them all the unbiblical cliches you want. they wont understand it.
"missing the mark" is an unbiblical cliche. sorry.
rather - tell them sin is the transgression of the law - bring them through the law - then tell them Jesus died for their sins. that way they know what sin is.
for how can one repent from something they dont even know?
It sounds like you need to study John 3:16.
"They don't understand why Jesus died on the cross."
--"God gave his only begotten Son" For what purpose? No one ever said you witness just by quoting the verse. A little explanation is due.
"God so loved the world" How did he demonstrate that love?
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth (demonstrated) his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
--No one said that John 3:16 was the only verse you had to use. The great demonstration of God's love to us is that even though we are sinners Christ still died for us.
I can go on.
Expostion is a great thing.
how would you explain to an unbeliever why Christ died for him/her?
Why was it necessary for God to give his only begotten Son? Because man is separated from God through sin. The reason he died for us is becasue of our sin (yours and mine). Sin has a consequence (Rom.6:23).
(Further explanation as needed.) But yes He died to atone for the penalty of our sin, a penalty that we deserve. He paid the penalty for us. That is love.
In John 3:3, Jesus is telling Nicodemus something that he should have already known. (Nicodemus knows that Jesus is a man from God.) He tells him how to be born from above (see the Kingdom). Then, he proceeds to tell him how to enter the Kingdom. Nicodemus, like so many today, see it as an all-or-nothing proposition and fail to see what lies beyond simply being saved.
In John 3:16, "believe" is a present, active, participle, and it's talking about perishing, or losing one's life in the age to come. Spiritual salvation is not even in view in John 3:16, other than you have to be born from above before you can perish. If you try to apply perishing to spiritual salvation, you will run into all sorts of contradictions in Scripture. (Although, I do have to admit that I grew up learning this verse as a salvation verse, until I looked at what the verse actually says.)
Your claim is bogus. Take a look again.
(Joh 3:18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Should I start yelling back too? Nah.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
"He that believeth on him" present, active, participle, and the one believing is doing the action; synonymous with the noun "faith"; The one believing into him; the one being faithful.
"is not condemned" present, passive, indicative, and the one faithful one is receiving the action; is not being judged.
So, the one who is being faithful, is not being judged. Present tense.
"he that believeth not" present, active, participle, and the one believing is doing the action; synonymous with the noun "faith"; the one not being faithful.
"is condemned already" perfect, passive, indicative; the results of the action continue to exist, and the unfaithful one is receiving the action; the timeline would be represented by a dot and a line, with an indefinite ending.
Judgment has already been passed on the one who is not believing in the present tense; the one being unfaithful.
"because he hath not believed" perfect, active, indicative; the results of the action continue to exist, and the unfaithful one is doing the action, and he's taken a continuing attitude of being unfaithful, although he could change at some point in the future.
"in the name of the only begotten Son of God" In the name. This is not talking about spiritual salvation.
What does the bible mean when it refers to the ones who are believing after being saved? [John 1:12] "…to them [the ones] that believe [present active participle, a subset of the saved] on his name:" We do not believe on the name to get saved. We believe on the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary. Believing on the name is something different and the word believe in the later part of verse 12 is in the present tense. And it says the ones believing are begotten of God and this birth from God is not on the basis of the will of the flesh, the will of man, or bloods which is plural meaning family or nations or heritage. This birth is different from the birth from above in John 3:3.
Let’s look a little closer at this thought of one believing after salvation. [1 John 3:23] "And this is his [the] commandment [singular], That we should believe [present active subjunctive] on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” This is his commandment; it’s singular in number. This is a specific commandment and it has the definite article “the” before it and you would read it “this is the commandment of him. That we should believe, [present active] on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment”. What is the name that we are to be believing in in the present tense? We are to believing in the name of His son Jesus the Christ. What does a name mean? If I walked up to the White House and knocked on the door and said I want to see the President, they would bring a straight jacket and tell me the place to go, but if I had a name or someone’s authority to have access to the President… that is the same idea here. Believing on the name of the Son of God, he is the one who has the authority. Where is his authority? Just here on the earth? No! His authority is in heaven and on earth. Did you know that his name is above every name that is named not only here on the earth but in heaven. If I am believing in his name, I have the right authority for my life.
What is the purpose of the book of John? [John 20:31] John 20:31 "But these are written, that ye might believe [present active] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing [present active] ye might have life (millennial life) through his name." Believing in His name will provide us with life for the coming age. Believing in his name will provide us with millennial life of ruling and reigning with Christ. That is what believing in the present tense provides. That was the purpose of the writing of the book of John that we might believe in the present tense.
There is an interesting passage about those who believe not in the present tense. [John 6:64-68] "But there are some of you that believe [present active] not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed [present active] not [ouj, emphatic not], and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal [millennial, agelasting] life."
Believing on the name is to acknowledge who has the key of the knowledge of life for the coming age. Believing on his name means we won’t quit following him. He knew from the beginning who would believe in the present tense. He also knew from the beginning who would believe in the aorist tense. If he did not know who was going to believe in the aorist tense, how could he gather together a special group that would believe in the present tense. And there were some disciples that were following him that when the doctrine got too tough they left. What he was teaching did not fit tradition, therefore they left. Do you see that happening today? Believing in the present tense has to do with a select group of children of God who have believed or received Jesus Christ as their personal savior. They are the ones who appreciate the word of life for the age to come.
Sorry, I wasn't yelling. That is just the way that the verses pasted in when I copied and pasted. Some used larger fonts than others. It was strange.
I voted- 'yes'. It is a matter with salvation, not millennial or temporaily issue such as purgatory doctrine.
The context of John chapter 3 focus on salvation and eternal life, ther eis not even a hint talk about millennial, because the context doesn't saying 'a thousand years' in there.
Also, John 3:16,18 clear telling us that we must continue beliving in Christ same as to be endure in him SHALL have eternal life, or, if we do NOT continue beliving or not endure in Christ SHALL NOT have eternal life.
Simple and plain.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
That's your answer to everything, but the 1,000-year phrase doesn't have to be mentioned for the millenium to be the context.
Joey Faust said of John 3:3 that we must be born again to enter "kingdom of God', he says it is millennial kingdom. Does Christ actual saying it? Does the Bible saying 'kingdom of God' is a temporaily or 1,000 years? If so, please show us a verse in the bible saying it is 1000 years.
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!