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John 4 and the sheep

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Frogman, Dec 16, 2003.

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  1. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    This may be more appropriate to post on the C/A forum. If so, just move and I will find it and forgive me for the mispost.

    The passage:

    And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. [John 4.42]

    The woman went from meeting Christ to declare him to the Samaritans and many believed on him for the saying of the woman...vs. 39

    The Samaritans came to him and besought him to tarry with them...and many more believed because of his own word...vss. 40-41

    Then vs. 42.

    What caused these to believe?

    Are both of these speaking of believing/saving faith?

    Are these believers because they are sheep or sheep because they are believers?

    vss. 41-42 have led me to consider Romans 10.17 in a different light.

    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    What I believe:

    Faith certainly cometh by hearing but this hearing is not brought by preaching. Instead it is hearing by the word of God. I believe this exemplifies John 10.4 & 27.

    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
    #1 Frogman, Dec 16, 2003
  2. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Jesus is the Word. John 1. [​IMG]
     
    #2 LadyEagle, Dec 16, 2003
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yes, and Jesus is the express image of God...Heb. 1.3.

    In Romans 10.17 the word is the exclamation, then, the exclamation of God.

    Christ is the express exclamation of God. Then, this removes the preached word in so much as it has any relationship to eternal salvation.

    Because,
    Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

    hearing is opened then not by the preaching of men but by the hearing of the voice of Christ; or by the drawing of the individual from God through the Holy Spirit to Christ.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #3 Frogman, Dec 16, 2003
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Jesus doesn't save "goats" and turn them into "sheep". Lots of our structured "evangelism" is designed to reach, convert, manipulate, entice goats.

    Jesus saves "sheep" that are lost.
     
    #4 Dr. Bob, Dec 16, 2003
  5. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Dr. Bob, I know you won't take this on my authority, but sheep and goats are the same KIND of animal. They belong to the same subfamily and the family or subfamily is basically what the Kind or baramin is of Genesis 1.

    If Jesus could turn water to wine, He has no trouble turning a goat to a sheep.

    Here is some information verifying what I have said about them being the same:

    Peptide sequences of fibrinogen for sheep and goats are identical
    http://www.communitycma.org/Taxonomy.htm

    Caprinae (Sheep, Goats)

    Relationships within the subfamily Caprinae have never been fully resolved.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8744761&dopt=Citation

    http://www.wild-natures.com/ovis_ammon_karelini.html -- you can see the similarity when you look at a wild sheep.

    http://www.zoo.org/educate/fact_sheets/serow/serow.htm -- another member of this subfamily, called the ‘goat antelope’

    http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Budorcas_taxicolor.html -- The Takin is another member of this subfamily

    http://www.ultimateungulate.com/Artiodactyla/Rupicapra_rupicapra.html -- so is the chamois

    http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goat -- basic information on the goat

    http://www.asrc.agri.missouri.edu/keislerd/345/2001%20Lectures/23%20Jan%202001%20lecture/23_jan_2001lecture.htm
     
    #5 Helen, Dec 16, 2003
  6. Ransom

    Ransom Active Member

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    Jesus' point has nothing to do with zoology.
     
    #6 Ransom, Dec 16, 2003
  7. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    I think the distinction is that the goats are those who reject the Word. A goat doesn't become a sheep because he is by definition not a sheep. As well, every sheep must start out lost and be found. You're right about the sheep and goats being similar but they are usually referred to differently. Hebrew is sa'ir for goat and tson for sheep although the latter can mean sheep or goat!
     
    #7 Charles Meadows, Dec 16, 2003
  8. Ps104_33

    Ps104_33 New Member

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    I'm not quite sure I am getting the point of this post but I will put my two cents in.

    John 10:26 says: But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    Notice Jesus says "not of my sheep" implying that there were sheep not of His fold.

    Notice also Jesus says that the reason they didnt believe is because they were not of His sheep. Not "Ye are not my sheep because you dont believe, but you dont believe because you are not my sheep".
     
    #8 Ps104_33, Dec 16, 2003
  9. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows New Member

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    The analogy of sheep and goats does not make much sense if we say that there are multiple "folds" of sheep. If Christ is the shepherd then His people are the sheep - as contrasted with the goats. Besides, who would the other sheep be (please not the latter day saints!)? :D
     
    #9 Charles Meadows, Dec 16, 2003
  10. Tim

    Tim New Member

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    As Jesus spoke in John 10:16 of "other sheep which are not of this fold" He was referring to the Gentiles--to which the gospel had been little preached at that time. But they did "hear his voice" and now there is "one fold, and one shepherd" (despite what some dispies may tell you).

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
    #10 Tim, Dec 16, 2003
  11. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    The elect and non-elect are also of the same sub-family.

    Bro. Dallas
     
    #11 Frogman, Dec 17, 2003
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    BAAAA! BAAAA! BAAAA!
     
    #12 HankD, Dec 19, 2003
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