John 6:37

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. Primitive Baptist

    Primitive Baptist
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    All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. -John 6.37

    Whatever Jesus was talking about, the giving precedes the coming. What was He talking about?
     
  2. Frogman

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    All that the Father giveth me---the elect.

    shall come to me---I believe particularly regeneration, but I cannot go so far as to say those who are given which certainly do come do not experience conversion as well as regeneration, so I would have to answer this as regeneration and conversion. he that cometh to Him is as you say first 'given' to Him by the Father; this is why I believe they who come will experience conversion.


    and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out--eternal security.

    God Bless
    Bro. Dallas Eaton [​IMG]
     
  3. npetreley

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  4. Me2

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    What the father gave the son was a wife..his bride.

    yet within the bride is all the (eggs) children she will birth. as today with the female gender. she has every egg within her at her birth that she will ever need. this is why we only see the bride being assembled and none of her children.

    for through the bride will all other spirits emerge and be born.

    the bible speaks of none of these children coming forth for when it speaks of the bride.

    the bride represents her childrens future existence.

    thoughts to ponder.
     
  5. Southern

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    Me2,
    The verse shows that God the Father has given a people to the Son before they actually come and that they will be raised up on the last day. I still do not see how your example has anything to do with the immediate context of John 6.

    The original posters point was that the giving precedes the coming. In other words, the "reason" they come is because they are given. Maybe it would help me understand if you show from the text how your example fits, because it left me asking, why is their only a certain group given to be His children?

    In Christ
     
  6. Me2

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    Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    there are four analogies that come out of these statements.
    references towards the joining of the husband, bride.
    the birthing of physical sons given to their earthly father.
    the assembling of the company of the many bodies of the office of Christ.
    the birthing of sheep within a flock

    take your pick..I used the husband, bride analogy and the children that afterwards blesses the union.

    1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

    peter gives us a hint of the many functions or viewpoints of the elect. chosen generation (sons)
    royal preisthood (christs body) holy nation (husband,wife) perculiar people (traveler passing through - pilgrims (or sheep being lead))

    of which Jesus uses all these analogies in his parables when speaking to the public concerning spiritual explainations of His Kingdom.

    If you want to be specific spiritually.

    this is the predetermined number of followers that pre-existed in the image of Christ before the foundation of the World.

    the were contracted to be placed in death. given blessings by God. have them taken away (grace) tried, and persecuted by satan to witness to all creation that God is Sovereign in their lives. the giving of the free gift of the spirit is followed by the complete resurrection of spirit, soul and Body by their "Lord".

    all that are given to the lord will be completely resurrected in the first day of the next age to be witnesses to those within the following or second resurrection. they are called the bride.

    q)who is the bride and spirit speaking to?
    a)their children...

    Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    this is a future offering by the spirit and body to all who can hear in the next age.

    meaning the elect are specifically chosen.
    and the next age is followed by the non elect.

    the whosoever wills. (meaning the billions)

    Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
    Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.

    Jesus the head.,
    the church (elect) the firstborn.

    and "all the rest"...
     
  7. Ray Berrian

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    The Godhead is eternal and has always known who will receive the Son. This sentence assures us of the Omniscience of the Godhead. The first sentence in John 6:37 does not mean that God has secretly or mysteriously chosen certain sinners for eternal life, while willingly turning the rest of humanity away from Himself. The second idea that Jesus offers for our learning, teaching and preaching is that He has an open handed attitude toward all of His created human beings. This assures us of the Divine justice of the Lord God and the reality of His love toward all lost souls. [John 3:16 & I John 2:2]

    If it were not so serious a subject, it is almost funny how Calvinists put such a 'spin' on John's passage coming out of his first epistle, himself being the greatest example of Christian love other than our Lord. :confused:

    Berrian, Th.D.
     
  8. Southern

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    Ray,

    You say that this verse assures us of God's omniscience. What the text does say is that God the Father has given a people to the Son and that these people "will" come to Him. Where do you find (in this text) that this giving is dependent upon God's omniscience of what they will do rather than the ones coming because they are given?

    I hope that I am clear in what I am asking. I may be misunderstanding you, correct me if wrong! It seems your reading something into the text that is not there but instead has to be brought to the text and in fact turns the verse on its head.

    May God bless you and
    Thanks for your interest in the Scriptures
     
  9. Southern

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    I believe that this text found in John 6 is one of the clearest in all of scripture. I have found it interesting to see people struggle to give any interpretation of this text besides one that teaches election. All proposed interpretations end up bringing something to the text or turning the text on its head. I thank God for this board because I believe that as men struggle with God's truth, some of them will eventually bow down to the glorious teaching of God's grace!
    To God alone be the glory!
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    You will agree with me that God already knows who will ultimately be saved. This is what Jesus meant when He said, 'All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me.'

    My question to you from the second phrase of this verse. If any one comes to Jesus will He cast them out? In His words, He says no. ' . . . and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out. What does this mean? First, the sinner must come to Him. Secondly, He is not qualifying by saying that only His chosen will come. In this verse the sinner must resolve to move in His direction. We call this faith in Jesus.

    Also, factor into your theory of His elect--Jesus words in John 5:40. 'And ye will not come to Me, that you might have life.' Do you see where He is laying the responsibility?
     
  11. Southern

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    Ray,
    I believe God already knows because of the texts that speak about that. There is no mention of foreknowledge here. You have to bring that into the text when the text says the reason they come is "because" they are given not because they are foreknown. I must ask, where in this text do you get this Foreknowledge idea? If you can find it, I would love to discuss it.

    Concerning your question:
    Yes they must come, but the whole point of verse 37 is that they "will" come! The sinner not only must but He will (vs. 37)! People must put their "faith" in Jesus to be saved, but "who are the ones that do this" according to this text? Read verse 37.

    About John 5:40:
    I believe that that they would not come because they did not want to! He that believeth not on Him is help responsible for his rebellion against God. The ones who don't come to Christ, do not want to come to Christ.

    Ray: I must ask you if you have ever studied what Baptists of the (1689 London, Philadelphia Confession) believe (Not hardshells)? And have you ever had 2 Tim. 2 (which you posted with another string of alleged proof texts in another post) and like verses explained to you in their context from the position the reformed perspective?

    Thanks for your time
    May God bless you
     
  12. Southern

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    I wanted to 'bump' this question back up.

    Can someone explain this verse from an Arminian perspective. We have had some good discussion but the only attempt has been to use foreknowledge as an escape hatch. I have yet to see somebody defend this position from the text itself. Let me ask again, can someone explain this text from any position besides election, if you say its according to God looking to the future, how do you defend that postion from the text itself?

    In Christ
     
  13. BobRyan

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    God knows the future but still enables free will.

    God knew ALL about Christ's work - but Christ still had free will.

    God says He is the savior of the world, died for the world and is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world.

    Calvinists can not think like God - because they are not God. That should not be a barrier to accepting the above statements as fully true.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Southern

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    Bob,
    I was not asking for ad hominem. I was trying to get someone to address John 6:37. I don't know what the issues you brought up have anything to do with what I asked and it certainly does not answer John 6:37.

    In Christ
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    How does John 6:37 dovetail with Ezekiel 33:11 which says, 'As I love, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live . . . . . '?
     
  16. Southern

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    Ray,
    The word "desired" in 1 Samuel 2:22-25, "the Lord desired to put them to death," is the same Hebrew word (haphez) used in Ezekiel 18:23,32 and 33:11 where God asserts that he does not desire the death of the wicked.

    We have one verse saying He does, we have one saying that He does not "desire" the death of the wicked.God desired to put the sons of Eli to death, but he does not desire the death of the wicked. This shows the oversimplicfication of your position that does not interact with the totality of scripture. When we try to understand what the Bible says and put the two together is that in one sense God may desire the death of the wicked and in another sense he may not. (I am assuming you are not familiar with the revealed will, decreed will distinction which all Christians hold to in some fashion)Many passages could be brought up to show the same found in Ez. 18. (Joseph, Death of Jesus on Cross, etc.)

    I must comment that it is interesting to me that Arminians go to Old Testament passages that are not addressing clear teaching of scripture where eternal salvation is the issue (Prov. 16:4). Not to underestimate the importance of the Old Testament but to show the weakness of the position.

    Who are the ones given in John 6:37? Why are not all given?

    In Christ
     
  17. Baptist Vine

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    Just as some read into the text when they reinterpret every occurance of words like 'all' to mean only a select group, the elect; 'all' suddenly becomes a meaning other than what is literally stated.

    It's interesting that an appeal is made to what the text 'literally' states, yet when the word 'all' is encountered what the text literally says suddenly goes out the window.
     
  18. GeneMBridges

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    Baptistvine,

    I submit that it is the overstating of the word "all" by Arminians in many places that is the problem.

    "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming."
    Who are the ones who will be made alive? They are the Christians and only the Christians. First of all, to be "in Christ" is a phrase that describes a saving relationship between the redeemed and the Redeemer: "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:1, NIV) (See also, Rom. 6:11; 12:5; 16:7; 1 Cor. 1:2, etc.); second, those who are made alive at Christ's coming are the believers. We will be made alive with Christ: "By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also" (1 Cor. 6:14, NIV); "in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed" (1 Cor. 15:52, NIV).
    The "all" that died in Adam were all that Adam represented: every individual who ever lived. Those "in Christ" are only believers. The "all" therefore can only be the believers, because it says "in Christ all shall be made alive." If all shall be made alive, then the "all" can only mean the believers because only believers are made alive in Christ. There simply isn't any biblically consistent alternative interpretation. But you might object and say that the first "all" refers to everybody, obviously. So why, then, doesn't the second do the same? Because the second "all" can't refer to everyone. Only the Christians are made alive.
    It could be said that everyone, believer and unbeliever alike, will be raised; only the unbelievers are raised to receive damnation. This is true, but it does not fit here in this passage because it is speaking of those who are Christ's; that is, the believers. The "all" of these verses can only be the elect. (MSlick)

    You see, if you overstate "all" and don't limit it in some way, you have to end up with universalism. In other words, everybody limits the scope of "all" in some manner, because if not, the logical inference of many "all" references would end up with universalism, which we deny as a Biblical teaching.

    Romans 5:18 is another example: therefore as through one offense into all men into condemnation, so also through one righteous deed into all men into justification of life"

    So, therefore, as through one offense, into all men into condemnation,
    so, also, through one righteous deed, into all men into justification of life.
    The NASB gives the best translation: "So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

    If you say that this "all" is everybody everywhere and everywhen, you end up with universalism. It says that justification is actual, not potential, and if that is so, and "all men" is universal, then you end up with universalism, which orthodox Christianity denies. The only way an Arminian can get out of this problem is to assume a potential, not an actual atonement, but that is not supported by the text itself. The verbs indicate that this justification is actual in the same way that the condemnation is actual. All men are actually condemned and all men are actually justified is the only way to interpret the text, because the verbs indicate actuality, e.g. definitiveness, not potentiality. However, since we know that Scripture does not teach universalism, then "all men" must be qualified in some manner. It must be the Christians, because the unregenerate are not justified.

    If John 12:32's reference to "all" is not qualified in some manner, you've got a real problem too, because if Jesus draws all men to Himself, then what about those that never hear the gospel? I don't see how they can since they never had the opportunity to hear and, therefore, believe in Jesus. Again, what about the tribesmen in the Amazon? What about the Incas and Aztecs at the time of Christ? What about the countless people who had never even heard of Jesus, the Bible, Jehovah, or the Jews? How are they drawn if Jesus draws all men? They certainly must be drawn if the Arminian position is valid and the "all" here means every individual. But no one can believe unless they hear the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). How can the heathen believe without hearing? How can they all be drawn if they never hear the gospel or even have the slightest chance to ever hear it? They cannot. (MSlick).
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    The Father can only give to the Son those who have received and love His Son. [John 3:17] Yes, God knows the number of His elect and always has but He has not driven the non-elect away from the covenant of grace. Why? Because 'All who cometh to Him He will in no wise cast out.' It's not a Divine mystery. God tells us all this information up front. [I John 5:12]

    In Ezekiel thirty-three you must follow the word, 'wicked'. Is there any reason why a holy God would want the wicked to not turn from their way and live now so they can enjoy the future life with Him? As Ezekiel was called, 'O son of man' and the 'watchman' we too are to preach and witness all the time for Jesus, when prompted by the Holy Spirit. [33:8 & Mark 16:15] Jesus, our Lord, will hold us accountable at the Judgment Seat of Christ, if we neglect our witnessing to Jesus Christ. While Ezekiel may be speaking about 'physical death' in vs. 11 and in this chapter, I still don't think that anyone believes that the wicked end up in Heaven. So if God finds ' . . . no pleasure in the death of the wicked . . . ' you go and figure it out.

    Either He at times finds pleasure in the death of the wicked, or the other side of the coin is that He never finds pleasure in the death of those sorry lost souls.

    Dr. Berrian
     
  20. Sularis

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    Woah there Gene boy

    Im gonna have to wait until I get back to where I got my Greek and Hebrew - and my commentaries - but hooo boy - ALL is ALL - and I aint no universalist either

    But be assured I will respond with more detail

    PS - you think God needs you to tell the lost tribesmen about Him? Uh Uh

    the word Jew is in no wise essential to anyone's salvation - the word Bible will not save either

    You speaking the words in the Bible do naught either - it is the Spirit of God

    "...Not by might nor by power but by MY Spirit saith the Lord..."

    I will respond in greater detail
     

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