John 6:64-65 and objectivity

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by The Biblicist, Dec 3, 2013.

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  1. The Biblicist

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    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.


    Any reader, without bias, who was completely objective would read and understand verse 65 as Christ's explanation for the unbelief of those in verse 64 - it is just that obvious and simple.

    Verse 65 must be understood to explain unbelief in verse 64 because Christ said, "therefore said I unto you, that no man CAN COME UNTO ME" and unbelief is not coming to Christ in faith.

    The only reason that our Arminian friends will not treat these two verses objectively for what they obviously and clearly state is because it would contradict their interpretation of John 6:44-45 and 12:32 where they demand all men without exception are drawn to Christ by the Father and not all drawn come. It would prove that the Father does not draw all men without exception as verse 65 explicitly d4 denies those in verse 64 had been drawn to Christ by the Father. Like many others, they were drawn to Christ by their own selfish reasons (food, miracles, power, etc.) but were never drawn in the sense described in John 6:44-45 as that is the obvious and clear application of John 6:65 to the obvious and clearly repeated stated problem of unbelief in verse 64.

    The truth is that "all" in John 12:32 is the same "all" in John 6:45a which is the very same "all" in John 6:37-39 as the very same conclusion in John 6:39b is the very same conclusion drawn in John 6:44b demonstrating the very same "all" are in view. But, what does Biblical evidence have do with how people interpret scripture??????
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Careful parsing and snipping - needed to support Calvinism.

    John 6.

    70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

    Notice He did not say "did I myself not CHOOSE one of you to BE a devil". Rather "Did I not choose you, the twelve - AND YET one of you is a devil"


    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


    66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.

    Peter did no say 'you have caused us to believe you'
     
  3. BobRyan

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    59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?

    Looks like Calvinism failing here - they do HEAR Jesus yet they choose to stumble and Jesus does not say "Did I NOT CAUSE you to stumble" rather He said "does THIS CAUSE you to stumble".

    According to Christ the drawing of God is TO ALL -- "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    But just as He "CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1 - so also "HE draws ALL" but ALL do not choose to come to him.

    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’


    Matt 23
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (NASB)

    None of this is presented in the Calvinist arbitrary selection model.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #3 BobRyan, Dec 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2013
  4. The Biblicist

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    Please look at the present tense "is" in the very text you quote in John 6:70. He knew this "is" the condition of Judas "from the beginning" when he chose him (Jn. 6:64). He was never a believer, never saved and the present tense all the way back in John 6 long before John 17 proves that.


    You talk about being guilty of "parsing" and "snipping"!!!! You conveniently omit verses 64-65 as they would contradict your very conclusion. You are simply being dishonest and there is no other way to frame it but pure dishonesty with God's Word.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    You talk about "arbitrary selection"!!!!! That is all you are doing, RUNNING from the text in question, JUMPING to all other kinds of texts jerked out of context and then PITTING your jerked out of contexts against the CONTEXTUAL BASED FACTS which you are not candid or honest, or objective enough to even consider much less attempt to answer.
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    John 6:65 reads naturally as the explanation for why the unbelief in verse 64. It reads so natural that it requires an exerted effort to explain it away and yet that exertion is readily expended by those who refuse to objectively understand these verses as they naturally read. Why? It contradicts their forced interpretation on John 6:44-45.

    Verse 65 provides the EXPLANATION why those men did not "come unto me" which cannot be understood in any other sense than it is expressed negatively in verse 64 as UNBELIEF. Hence, to "come unto me" is to BELIEVE on me - it is that which must be "given" unto them by the Father which defines what it means to be drawn by the Father, which is an INTERNAL revelation of the very "substance" of faith (Heb. 11:1) or what is essential for the hope of salvation.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?

    Looks like Calvinism failing here - they do HEAR Jesus yet they choose to stumble and Jesus does not say "Did I NOT CAUSE you to stumble" rather He said "does THIS CAUSE you to stumble".

    According to Christ the drawing of God is TO ALL -- "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    But just as He "CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1 - so also "HE draws ALL" but ALL do not choose to come to him.

    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’


    Matt 23
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (NASB)

    None of this is presented in the Calvinist arbitrary selection model.


    "The mere quote of the text" is sufficient to get our Calvinist friends to hit the ceiling. As soon as the text is found to be uncomplimentary to Calvinism well then "it is jerked out of context" -- by "definition" according to some Calvinists.

    How sad.

    Deal with the points raised in the text - less acrimony please.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Careful parsing and snipping - needed to support Calvinism.

    John 6.

    70 Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” 71 Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him.

    Notice He did not say "did I myself not CHOOSE one of you to BE a devil". Rather "Did I not choose you, the twelve - AND YET one of you is a devil"


    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


    66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore. 67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?” 68 Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. 69We have believed and have come to know that You are the Holy One of God.

    Peter did no say 'you have caused us to believe you'

    "And YET" one of you is a devil - shows that Judas was going against Christ's purpose for him.

    the point remains -- you simply choose to focus "on something else".

    hence the texts that follow - showing how people were going against Christ's purpose for them.


    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’


    Matt 23
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (NASB)

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    None of this is presented in the Calvinist arbitrary selection model.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    When are you going to deal objectively with the subject matter of the OP? All you are doing is putting together a patch quilt of RJP's. Does the word "context" mean anything to you rationale at all???????:tonofbricks:
     
  10. BobRyan

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    I am dealing with the "subject matter" what you really want is "do not include any other text that might shed light on the subject matter" --

    A silly idea that is "needed" to make Calvinism "Appear to work".

    how sad.

    ======================

     
  11. Revmitchell

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    More attack dog Calvinism I see
     
  12. Sapper Woody

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    Actually, from an objective standpoint, this passage does not support either Calvinism or Armenianism. It could simply be talking about the fact that one does not simply and arbitrarily choose to get saved, but rather that there must be conviction of the holy spirit in order for man to be saved.

    It says nothing about the Father only giving it to a select few, but only that the Father had to give it for it to happen.

    It also doesn't say that the Father giving it makes it happen. But only that the Father giving it makes it possible.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    Indeed - all squares are rectangles.

    But not all rectangles are squares.

    Man must be drawn - but God then says He "DRAWS ALL unto ME" John 12:32.

    And there is not ONE text that says "All Drawn WILL come to Me" so Calvinists "quote themselves" to get that in print.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. BobRyan

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    The propositions in the OP - deal with subject matter where the Calvinist proposal is sufficiently debunked in the details noted below.

    John 6
    59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
    60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble?

    Looks like Calvinism failing here - they do HEAR Jesus yet they choose to stumble and Jesus does not say "Did I NOT CAUSE you to stumble" rather He said "does THIS CAUSE you to stumble".

    According to Christ the drawing of God is TO ALL -- "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32

    But just as He "CAME to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT" John 1 - so also "HE draws ALL" but ALL do not choose to come to him.

    Luke 7
    30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John. 31 “To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’ 33 For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’ 34 The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’


    Matt 23
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. (NASB)

    None of this is presented in the Calvinist arbitrary selection model.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    I am not defending Calvinism or Arminianism. I am asking for an objective read of the text and your response is anything but objective as you refuse to even acknowledge the obvious. The obivous is that verse 64 identifies the problem of unbelief while verse 65 provides the reason for that unbelief and it has to do with verse 44. This is so obvious and so clear it takes intentional rationalization to avoid it!

    It does not take a rocket scientist to realize he is referring to verses 44-45 in verse 65 as an EXPLANATION for the the unbelief in verse 64! That is so obvious that it is difficult how any one with two grains of common sense could miss it any other way than by intent.

    It does not take a genius to see what is not "given" by the Father in John 6:65 is the very thing stated in verse 65 which is explicitly stated in verse 65 "come unto me." One must close their eyes to miss this obvious statement.

    It does not take a theologion to see that "come unto me" in verse 65 is being contrasted to "beleive not" in verse 64.

    These things are so obvious and so clear that intelligence must be vacated to miss them.
    ]
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Again, you ignore the OP but at least you make an attempt to deal with a couple of scriptures in the context. For that attempt I give you credit. However, no one has denied those whom the Father never draws (Jn. 6:65) cannot physically hear Jesus! That is a straw man of your own making.

    Furthemore, it is the truth that caused them to stumble becuase the Father did not give them understanding which is part of the explanation for drawing in verse 45 if you will just read it.

    So your points prove my OP rather than disprove it.
     
  17. OldRegular

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    Those who hold to the same beliefs as Ryan must jump around and obfuscate for the simple reason that John 6:64 and 65 destroy their freewill doctrine. However, Ryan excels at obfuscation and jumping from pillar to post!
     
  18. Jordan Kurecki

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    Unless it be given - And it is given to those only who will receive it on God's own terms. (Commentary By Wesley.)

    I think the verse is saying that no man can receive salvation without God's grace of giving salvation to him, obviously no man can earn salvation so there is an aspect of God's grace, this does not negate free will in my opinion, because it does not say God will not give anyone that chance to come to him, It says that God must give them the opportunity to come to them, that they cannot come to him whenever they feel like it. I think this verse is directed towards those who think that they can put off salvation till their death bed. I think it is also in perfect agreement with how Romans 1 talks about the Depraved mind that results from rejecting God, once you reject God you run the risk of him allowing you into the depths of depravity and also run the risk of never receiving another opportunity because none can come to Christ unless it be given of the father.

    I view it like this:
    the only way for us to be saved is for God to draw us to himself, (No man can come unless it be given from the father.) As someone who believes in free will, If I am sitting there as a lost sinner, and the preacher is preaching the gospel and I am coming under conviction by the Spirit and God is drawing me, If I reject that drawing of God's Spirit than I am not Guaranteed another chance because no man can come to Jesus except it be given of the Father, in my Sotierology I have no conflicts with this verse by believing in man's free will and rejecting Calvinisms doctrine of predestination.

    think about it? it makes a lot of sense that way actually. People have a free will, but they can only have the opportunity if God gives it,But I really do believe that all men have the opportunity to come to him(Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.) , to me this completely reconciles Man's free will and Calvinisms view of the depravity of man. Does that make sense to anyone?

    Will you who hold to Calvinistic Predestination please prayerfully consider what I have said?
     
    #18 Jordan Kurecki, Dec 10, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2013
  19. Jordan Kurecki

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    I mean think about how many people sit in church and go just for the benefits that might be there but are not there because they really believe in Christ?

    How many of these disciples were following Jesus for the benefits without trusting in him and repenting of their sins?

    I think based on the context What Jesus is trying to make us see is that we need to respond positively to the Gospel and accept it, that we cannot hope to pretend to be followers of Jesus for the benefits because at some point, the Father is going to stop drawing us for salvation if we reject too many times.

    The disciples all left Jesus because God stopped drawing them to himself, that does not mean that they did not have the chance to believe.
     
  20. Iconoclast

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    Revmitchell

    Isn't that all you ever see? In your world every calvinist is an attack dog.
    Only you can be the judge of all calvinist posts...:confused::confused::confused:
     
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