John 8:25

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by North Carolina Tentmaker, Dec 27, 2003.

  1. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    Perhaps one of you Greek scholars can help me with the words of Jesus in this verse. As Jesus tried to reason with the Jewish leaders in the Temple they ask, "Who art thou?" Now Jesus had just made a pretty clear claim to deity in verse 24. Then Jesus replies to their question. The King James says,
    The NIV moves Jesus' words to verse 26 and says,
    John Phillips quotes the New English traslation as saying,
    He goes on to say that Jesus' words could be read'
    Matthew Henry claims that it could also be read,
    He notes that the Greek is really hard to understand here. Any thoughts?
     
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    Greek (1550 St Stephanus) = literal 2003 English

    elegon = they said
    oun = therefore
    auto = to him

    Therefore, they said to him,

    su = you
    tis = who
    ei = are

    Who are you?

    kai = and
    eipen = he said
    autois = to them
    ho = the
    Iesus = Jesus

    And Jesus said to them,

    taen = from the
    archaen = beginning
    hoti = that (which)
    kai = also
    lalo = I am saying
    umin = to you

    That which also I'm saying to you from the beginning.
     
  3. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    I see that Dr Bob has written a reply but I cannot see the text of it yet (not fully posted?). Anyway I'll add my own 2 cents worth.

    This is a historically difficult passage. The Greek is pretty simple up to the point where it says, "who art thou?"

    After this it gets tough. One of the big problems is that older Greek manuscripts were written in all capitals with no spaces between words and no punctuation! Ugh!

    The text from the Textus Receptus reads,

    "Eipen autois ho Iesous ten archen ho ti kai lalo humin."

    The first part is,"Jesus said to them." The second part (from ten archen) is the problem!

    For one thing we don't know if the text meant ho ti (2 words) or hoti (one word)!

    The Bodmer papyri (P66 - VERY old) adds "eipon humin" (I told you) right after the "Jesus said to them). This addition is favored by many scholars today (liberal and conservative among them).

    That would make our passage to read,

    "I told you what (I am) in the beginning and again I tell you".

    The Greek the way we have it really does not make a neat sentence. Thus we end up having to paraphrase somewhat. Since not all the manuscripts agree we see some different translations in the KJV vs NIV vs NASV etc.

    Hope this helps! [​IMG]
     
  4. Charles Meadows

    Charles Meadows
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    I should add that the last translation is not mine but that of Bruce Metzger. His "Textual Commentary on the Greek NT" has a nice discussion of this verse. ;)
     
  5. HankD

    HankD
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    Vlugate: John 8:25
    dicebant ergo ei tu quis es dixit eis Iesus principium quia et loquor vobis

    English: John 8:25
    They said, therefore, to him, `Thou -- who art thou?' and Jesus said to them, `Even what I did speak of to you at the beginning;

    The site claims that the Young's English is closest to the Vulgate.

    http://www.24hourlatin.com/cgi-bin/elbible.pl

    Douay-Rheims:
    John 8:25 They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you.

    HankD
     
  6. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    Peshitta (Lamsa translation)
    John 8:25 The Jews said, Who are you? Jesus said to them, Even though I should begin to speak to you,
     
  7. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769
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    Joh 8:25

    (KJV) Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.

    (Geneva) Then saide they vnto him, Who art thou? And Iesus saide vnto them, Euen the same thing that I said vnto you from the beginning.

    (ALT) So they were saying to Him, "You, who are You?" And Jesus said to them, "Just what I [have been] speaking to you* even [from] the beginning.

    (LITV) Then they said to Him, Who are You? And Jesus said to them, The Beginning, what I also say to you.
     
  8. Dr. Bob

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    After I write a post I must go back and immediately edit it. The neuropathy (total nerve loss) in my legs and feet is moving quickly into my hands and I am no longer able to type at the speed my brain goes! Invert letters or "think" I've hit a letter and did not. Ask for everyone's patience. That .must be what happened

    And prayers for healing.
     
  9. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    Thanks Dr. Bob.

    Your first reply was exactly what I was looking for. This is really an interesting passage to me. Read in the context of the earlier verses I can feel the frustration in Jesus' words. He tells them and tells them, but they just don't get it.

    I did not know about your neuropathy Dr. Bob. I am sorry to hear about that but you wil ber held up in prayer.

    NC Tentmaker
     
  10. HankD

    HankD
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    Amen.

    HankD
     
  11. North Carolina Tentmaker

    North Carolina Tentmaker
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    wil ber, yea.

    I am glad you all know what I meant (God does to).

    Reminds me of the story about the Boy who addressed all of his prayers dear Howard.

    Said he learned that in Sunday School, you remember, "Our Father who art in heaven, Howard be thy name."
     

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