John Calvin on John 3:16-17

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, May 14, 2007.

  1. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    This is what has been posted by some non_calvinist

    Please note the words from Calvin....


    Now please look at the words as found in Calvins book on John...(english)


    Now I must ask. Is there anything in the quote from John that would lead others to think John Calvin was not a Calvinist?

    And..

    After you read the full statement by John Calvin, would you say John Calvin was a Calvinist, or a free-willer?
     
  2. Jarthur001

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    This time I would like to highlight a few words that others seem unwilling to post.

     
  3. Allan

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    Actually this is directly in line with what you are bring up and spoken of here beforehttp://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=994568&postcount=44 concerning our discussion of Calvin and Unlimited Atonement.

    But again I never stated Calvin was not a Calvinist. He just leaned more toward unlimited atonement but particular or limited Redeption.
     
    #3 Allan, May 14, 2007
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  4. Allan

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    You still don't deal with the fact Calvin speaks of Christs death for all mankind and that salvation is offered to all mankind in plain and simple wording.

    He maintains here that world means the wicked sinful mankind throughout his rendering here.
     
  5. Rippon

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    Allan keeps getting confused . Calvin and Calvinists believe in the free declaration of the gospel . But the external , indiscriminate call does not = universal provision . The Lord did not die for , on behalf of , in the place of , in the stead and room of reprobates . He died FOR His own -- the elect , his sheep , the church , the saints , ( and many more scriptural designations for one and the same group ) alone .

    John Calvin said the following in his treatise on the Lord's Supper :

    I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them , and how they can drink the blood which was not shed to expiate their sins . ( from True Partaking Of The Flesh And Blood Of Christ )

    In his Commentary on 1 John 2:2 :

    ... the design of John was no other than to make this benefit common to the whole church . Then under the word all or whole , he does not include the reprobate , but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world .

    In his Commentary on 1 Timothy 2:4 :

    ... the Apostle simply means , that there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation ; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception .
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    I should like to know how the wicked can eat the flesh of Christ which was not crucified for them, of which we all were at one time.

    I come to call sinners to repentance.

    It seems to be that this is double talk. Either some are excluded from salvation, or they are not. If no one is excluded, then He died for the sin of the whole world.

    I wish calvinist would stop saying, that He only died for the elect a pre-chosen group, and at the end try to clean it up by saying God gave all a chance for salvation.
     
    #6 Brother Bob, May 14, 2007
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  7. Rippon

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    BB , the free and unfettered proclamation of the Gospel is not at odds with the biblical fact of Christ dying for His own . Calvinists and any biblically-minded people do not belive that God offers chances for salvation . He's not running a lottery .
     
  8. Brother Bob

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    Ecc 9:11I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race [is] not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
     
  9. Rippon

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    The effectual call is for certain sinners . The general call is for all within hearing distance .
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    What is the "general call"?

    How can one preach to a group of sinners, and say, God loves you enough, that He gave His son that you might have eternal life, and really believe it yourself?

    It seems to me, if one is preaching to a group of sinners repentance, while knowing the majority can't repent, is just not giving the complete truth.

    I mean no disrespect at all, its just how I feel about it.
     
    #10 Brother Bob, May 14, 2007
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  11. examiningcalvinism

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    Who said Calvin was not a Calvinist?

    John Calvin was indeed a Calvinist of the Supralapsarian variety: “At this point in particular the flesh rages when it hears that the predestination to death of those who perish is referred to the will of God.” (Calvin’s New Testament Commentaries: Romans and Thessalonians, p.208, emphasis mine)

    As has been maintained, John Calvin was a 4-Point Supralapsarian who prescribed to Unlimited Atonement but also Double Predestination (quite differently than how Sproul believes in Double Predestination, but that's another matter).
    http://www.the-highway.com/DoublePredestination_Sproul.html

    The purpose of the Arminian in quoting John Calvin is simply to obtain exegetical support for the passage in which he is being quoted.

    Both Calvin and Luther were 4-Pointers who believed that Elective Grace precipitated Regenerative Grace which results in Persevering Grace. They were Calvinists, but not 5-Pointers. Ron Rhodes is a 4-Pointer, and does a good job in handling the 4-Point view.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Atonement.html
    http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/RollCall/Rhodes.html
     
  12. Allan

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    Rippon, it is you who are confused with what I am saying, so listen please.

    I'm NOT talking about your two calls, nor have ever been.

    I am speaking directly to the point that Calvin, Luther, and many other Reformers held to the view that Jesus died for ALL MEN but the redeeming affects of the Atonement are imputed only upon those to whom it has been applied through faith.

    Thus it SOUNDS (to some) like they contradict themselves, when in fact they don't. They speak to His death being made for all mankind, but they speak more specifically and ofter concerning those to whom it was to be applied through the foreknowledge of God. These are not contradictory but set forth in scripture.

    When THEY speak of limited Atonement it is in regard to it complete work of being offered up AND it's application. In that sense the Atonement IS limited to only those it is (or can be by the foreknowledge of God) applied to. You can even apply that same to the OT Atonement which is command to be given for all of Israel even though all of Israel did not follow nor believe in or only in the Lord God. It was made for all but applied only to those who believe by faith. The atonement was set forth to ALL Israelites because of Gods grace in yielding an Atonement toward them all but it's redeptive power is only applied when it is recieved by faith. The Same with the Atonement of Christ. It is the same Atonement becuase it had to fullfill the Laws requirement of not ONLY being applied to those who recieve it in faith but ALSO being offered up for ALL.

    They held this understanding of the Atonements offering AND application as one view, where the Non-Cal simply distinguishes the offering and the application.

    Thus His death for all doesn't save the whole world but saves only those who will believe, and therefore His death which is made for all is the ultimate condemnation against the World for its unbelief.
     
    #12 Allan, May 14, 2007
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  13. AresMan

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    How does anyone know this? Has anyone here claimed to know who can't repent?
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    No, that is not what I said. I said if you preach repentance to "all", and yet you say "all" can't repent. How can you reconcile that? It is Calvinist who say "all" can't repent.
     
    #14 Brother Bob, May 14, 2007
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  15. DQuixote

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    Cal was doing pretty good, on again, off again, until this:

    At the risk of losing favor with the Calvinists, based upon the OP and subsequent "debate", I'd say Cal just couldn't get a handle on it.

    :laugh:
     
  16. Rippon

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    Calvin On Isaiah 8:16

    Through Isaiah , He still more openly shows how he directs the promises of salvation specifically to the elect : for he proclaims that they alone , not the whole human race without distinction , are to become His disciples .
     
  17. Jarthur001

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    Setting aside who is right and who is in error, in this long standing debate.....

    Why would you say this?

    Not that you agree, but do you understand Calvinism? This would be a great support statement for Calvinism and not harm it.

    OR....

    If he did not back this up with verses from Gods Word, then I can understand your statement as well.

    However as you will find, this is backed by the Bible. Again, not that you agree.
     
    #17 Jarthur001, May 15, 2007
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  18. DQuixote

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    In essence, Cal said, in the portions reproduced in this thread, "I love all the colors of the rainbow precisely the same; blue is my favorite." That means that those who pronounce themselves Calvinist have to choose what Cal wrote, assemble that information, come to Cal's conclusion, then go to the Bible to pick and choose scriptures which support all the colors equally, especially blue.

    I think Cal himself, reading that, would say "Yes." :laugh:
     
    #18 DQuixote, May 15, 2007
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  19. Jarthur001

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    In essence..you are wrong...and as though before, you do not understand calvinism.

    To a Calvinist, John Calvin most be held to the same standard as all writers. That standard is the Bible. I am a Calvinist, not because I pronounced myself a Calvinist, but rather because others called me this. I take hold of the lable after I found out what they were talking about. I do not believe because John Calvin wrote a book and therefore I must follow John. For you to say such things proves you do not understand Calvinist.

    It was Chrsit that died for me, not john. It was God that choose me, not john. God wrote the Book, and it is the Book which is my standard. If Calvin leaves the truths found in Gods Word, it is Calvin that must go, and not the Bible.

    I feel John backs his words with the Bible....verse after verse after verse. I would like to see you back your claims made above with verses from the Bible.

    What do you disagree with...and why...based on Gods Word. If you not I will draw the conclusion you have none.
     
    #19 Jarthur001, May 15, 2007
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