John Calvin's Lip Service

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by steaver, Mar 13, 2015.

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  1. steaver

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    Matt 15:8 - "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me".

    Now the Apostle Paul came up against true heretics, but did he devise ways to put them to death?

    Why would I even want to listen to Calvin's sermons knowing he did not practice what he preached. Did Calvin preach on Matt 5:44, "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" ??? And what happens when one follows Jesus' command here? "That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." So then was Calvin a child of the Father? What of his true heart towards those who he disagreed with? Did Calvin have an understanding of what it meant to be born of God? Did he not have the Holy Spirit in him saying "don't be consenting to the death of one of My children". Did he miss that passage in the Holy Script?
     
  2. Rippon

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    Well, a lot of lips have been moving lately to denigrate Calvin. You'd think their sole purpose on the BB was to make scurrilous attacks on him.

    While I have defended him against their perversity and unmitigated lies, I have never put him in the place of Christ. I do not worship a creature. I have no part with idolatry. John Calvin was a sinner in need of the forgiveness of Christ. He was a debtor to the the mercies of Christ as all of us are who are numbered among the redeemed.

    But it's time now to give the man of Geneva his due. I will start with some positive quotes culled by Colin Maxwell:Some Things C.H.S. Said About Calvin etc. I will only quote a fraction of what he gathered. Remember, these are things Charles Spurgeon said about Calvin. Some of you who doubt that Spurgeon was a Calvinist might want to run and hide.

    Calvin is the grandest expositor ever. (6:445)
    Calvin was the most consistent expositor of the Bible who ever lived. (6:221)
    The teachings and writings of Calvin carried the gospel into the hearts of vast numbers of hearers and readers. (58:446)
    Calvin knew more about the gospel than almost any uninspired man who ever lived. (4:221)
    Calvin looked upon now only as a theologian --but was really one of the greatest gospel preachers. (14:216)
    By all means let Calvin's name be held in honour. (7:254)
    Ever a sweet savor of Christ round Calvin. (19:564)
    That mightest master in Israel, clear, upright, and profound. (24:605)
    The Church will not forget the sacrifices of Calvin. (25:707)
    I am a Calvinist, and a lover of that grand man's memory and doctrine. (44:517)
     
  3. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
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    Well....the worlds gone nuts. What are you going to do?
     
  4. Rippon

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    From First Address At Met. Tab. 8/21/1860

    Among all those who have been born of women, there has not risen a greater than John Calvin; no age before him ever produced his equal, and no age afterwards has seen his rival. In theology, he stands alone, shining like a fixed star, while other leaders and teachers can only circle round him at a great distance with nothing like his glory or his permanence.
     
  5. DHK

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    The Bible doesn't change.
    Christ doesn't change.
    If a man is a Christian he ought to display the fruit of the Spirit in his life no matter what his culture, country, climate, or citizenship may be.

    And yet if Calvin lived in America today, and had the freedom to act as he did in the 16th century, I believe he would be considered a "home-gown terrorist."
     
  6. Rebel

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    Exactly. He was one then and would be one now.

    For those who want to selectively quote Calvin in regards to Servetus, and Anabaptists, here are words directly from the scum's own mouth, as I have quoted before:

    "In the days of King Edward VI of England, Calvin wrote a letter to Lord Protector Somerset and urged him to put Anabaptists to death: “These altogether deserve to be well punished by the sword, seeing that they do conspire against God, who had set him in his royal seat” (John Christian, A History of the Baptists, Vol. 1, chap. 15).

    "When Servetus mentioned that he would come to Geneva, "Espeville" (Calvin) wrote a letter to Farel on 13 February 1546 noting that if Servetus were to come, he would not assure him safe conduct: "for if he came, as far as my authority goes, I would not let him leave alive."

    There you have the facts, straight from the horse's -- uh, jackass's -- mouth. No amount of yelping, protesting, deflection, lies, idolizing, or anything else can change the facts.

    It is a shame and a disgrace that anyone claiming the name of Baptist should defend such a demon and state-churchism. Our Baptist ancestors are rolling in their graves at such, many of the early ones being put in their graves by state-churchists.
     
  7. Rippon

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    You can't find a way to express yourself without resorting to non-moderator talk.

    By the way, what is a "home-gown" --something you wear around your house?
     
  8. DHK

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    There are dictionaries at your disposal. But if you need one, I will oblige:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homegrown_terrorism
     
  9. Robert William

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    Who cares what Calvin says, he is dead, let's just stick with scripture. Prove your free will idol with scripture. Everything always goes back to the free will idol, prove it without throwing out the depravity of man.
     
  10. Rippon

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    C.H. S. said this at a picnic at the Pastor's College in 1877 :

    "The longer I live the clearer does it appear that John Calvin's system is the nearest to perfection."

    John Murray : "Calvin was the exegete of the Reformation and in the first rank of biblical exegetes of all time."
     
  11. OldRegular

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    I believe the Doctrine of Sovereign Election and Grace most correctly and clearly present the Biblical teaching of Salvation. However, I don't have much use for Calvin, never have. He held to some teachings I reject. Having said that people should remember that Calvin was a reformer. Those practices he kept and I reject such as infant baptism came out of the Church of Rome. It seems likely that his dealing with what he considered heresy came from the Church of Rome also!

    Furthermore peoples opinion of Calvin really do not affect his correct understanding of Scripture teaching on Salvation.

    ****************
     
  12. OldRegular

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    I believe you are going overboard there:Matthew 11:11. Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

    Then of course as John the Baptist said: John 3:27. John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven..

    ***************************************
     
    #12 OldRegular, Mar 15, 2015
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  13. DHK

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    Yes he is. Those are Jesus words about John the Baptist. To apply that to Calvin is nothing else but idolatry.
     
  14. McCree79

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    Calvin had no citizenship. He had no power to execute, convict or even try him. Calvin only had influence of the Consistory. The civil Counsel made it clear to Calvin that the counsel had no governing authority. Calvin ...had no governing authority. Calvin endorsed the execution, but asked for a less cruel type. His request was refused, because he had no power.

    Protestants all over Europe during the 1500-1600' killed heretics. It doesn't make it right, but it was what governments did then. Were all Protestant leaders demonic like Calvin. Even more so, seeing that some actually did have the power and did execute heretics. Was the only true believers the Anabaptist heretics? Who held to their anti-Trinty, charasmatic speaking in tongues/ mass healings/abusive representation of the Holy Spirit?

    I also know that none of the Calvin haters have a King James Bible, right??? After all King James did order the execution of Anabaptist Edward Wightman. For teaching the very things of Servetus. So, no King James Bibles right. If Calvin was demonic, So was King James and his Bible must be destroyed, right? After all it is the Bible of a demonic person, per the stance taken on Calvin.

    If Calvin is demonic, than it stands that his others views are demonic. The Trinity???? After all, this is the topic that provoked Calvin and King James. So must the Trinity, which was taught by demonic teachers and King's be denounced? I guess we hould be Jehovah Witness's or Mormon's??? After all, the whole Servetus attack is to get people to denounce the teachings of Calvin. Since Protestants and Catholics across Europe executes heretics, we should abandon their teachings as well.

    You know what...we could probably just go back to old school Anabaptists. After all, it has been suggested as the ideal system of the 1500's. Speaking in tongues, throwing Holy Spirit grenades, mass healings......wait!!! We can all be televangelists!!! Watch out Joel, we are coming for you! Back to the days of the charismatic Anabaptist.


    *Note: I don't believe King James is demonic and in no way believe his Bible is anything but God's word. It has been the most influential bible of the English speaking world. So, don't attack me KJVOer's :)
     
    #14 McCree79, Mar 15, 2015
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  15. Rebel

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    Your arguments about Calvin are irrational, and wrong.

    I have provided quotes that condemn Calvin based on his own direct words.

    You grossly mischaracterize what the Anabaptists taught and believed. You sound like one of the state-churchists of the time hurling false accusations against them so as to justify their slaughter. They held a wide variety of views, but only a few of them were not orthodox. But the word "heretic" was used then to justify all kinds of ungodly acts against those labeled with the word.

    Let me again remind all Calvin defenders and admirers of this fact that some of you will not acknowledge: Had you lived in Calvin's Geneva and held to your Baptist principles of believer's baptism and religious liberty, which were also the principles of the Anabaptists, your hero's theocracy would have put you to death.
     
  16. McCree79

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    You mean there heretical view of the trinity? The Anabaptist view of anarchy? The view of Antinomianism? The kidnappings of children from pagans and forcing baptism? The Anabaptist's did all of these in the 1500-1600's

    * ...and the Anabaptists of the 1500's were charismatic. Spoke in tongues, mass healings.....that went all full Apostolic Pentecostal....never go full Pentecostal :)

    You are implying Calvin has people killed due to believers baptism. Which is not the case. His wife held to believers baptism when he meet.....she wasn't executed....he married her.

    *...and you can give all the Calvin quotes you want. He had to ability to execute. Who convicted him, who sentenced Servetus to death? It wasn't Calvin.

    You are against that demonic King James right? He did do, what you accuse Calvin of doing.
     
    #16 McCree79, Mar 15, 2015
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  17. DHK

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    You bear false witness probably due to ignorance. Learn something of the Anabaptists before you start posting about them:
    The Bible is a closed canon of holy books, i.e no more additions to the Bible are allowed because there are no more Apostles and Prophets in the Church. Only Apostles and Prophets have the authority to add new books to the Canon of the Bible. There are no new revelations or prophecies, and all supernatural Charismatic gifts of the Holy Spirit are no more present in the children of God. The Charismatic gifts were only present during the Apostolic period of Church (the 1st. century). The Bible is our necessary and sufficient supreme authority in our lives.
    This is a major belief of the Anabaptists. Why are you posting lies?
     
  18. McCree79

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    Zurich in 1525, at Munster in 1534 and at Amsterdam in 1535.....charismatic Anabaptists.

    I accept your apology in advance.
     
  19. DHK

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    The Munster Rebellion was not caused by the Anabaptist, per se.
    One must remember that the word "anabaptist" simply means "to baptize again," and so many fit under that umbrella. The vast majority of them were pacifists. Even the Amish of today are pacifists who historians say are more in line with the direct descendants of the Anabaptists.
    Revisionist history is not the best thing to post.
     
  20. DHK

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    C.T. Christian, in "A History of the Baptists" described what happened:
    I trust that will help clear things up for you.
     
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