I once heard a preacher who waxed eloquent on the damage these two did that have resulted in the abundant deceptions of the modern church. He pointed to the schemes of heightening sensationalist oriented music and sermons, that presented little if not highly watered down presentations of the Scriptures. The doctrinal error prone to those who follow their example and the moral excesses that plague those are who hold similar views in which they are more apt to fail. He also pointed to the typical Baptist call for a response (invitation time) as having come directly from Finney. He stated that the sober solemn worship was lost in the froth and fluff of the revival type services typical of what would pass for a Sunday sermon. He stated that these were all tools used to delude the church into a form of worship but was in actuality an affront to the Holy God of Heaven. BTW, this preacher is no intellectual midget mind, but has standing as a scholar and more than one published writing. I was wondering what the folks on the forum might consider of support or objection to the thinking of this preacher. OOOPPPSSS wrong Wesley!!!!!!!!!! - it was John not Charles. John is credited with much of the modernistic trends of the church of this day. Charles actually had strong disagreement with some of John's thinking.