Judas and the Lord's Supper

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by aa0310, Feb 9, 2005.

  1. aa0310

    aa0310
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    It is clear from the Gospel of Luke, that Judas part-took of the cup of the Lord's Supper (see Luke 22:21). In verse 20 Jesus tells the twelve, "this cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you". Now, we can only conclude from this, that Jesus also "tasted death" for Judas, who we know was not part of the so-called "elect", and Scripture informs us that he went to hell (Acts 1:25). If Jesus' death did not include Judas, He surely would have waited for Judas to have left the room to make his arrangements to betray Jesus, and then instituted the "Lord's Supper", and told the remaining 11 that His blood was to be shed for them. However, we cannot get away from the fact that the timing of Jesus doing this, was to include Judas, since He was also going to the cross for him. It was Judas to rejected the Salvation that Jesus was to provide for him, by betraying Him. 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12 informs us that God will send a "strong delusion" to those who rejact the Gospel, that they may perish. Why? "because they received no the love of the Truth, in order that they may be saved" (verse 10 - very clear teaching on free-will!). These are damned, "because they believe not (choice) the Truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness" (verse 12).

    Lets not have "theology" cloud our thinking, and accept the Bible when it clearly holds man responsible for their actions, especially by rejecting Jesus Christ as the ONLY Saviour of mankind!
     
  2. jim62

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    Proverbs 16:4 - "The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, ever the wicked for the day of evil".

    Judas perished and went to hell, but, you and I are saved. If he didn't betray Jesus, Christ would not have died, and we would still be lost.
     
  3. just-want-peace

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    I really doubt this. Do you really believe that God's plans would have been thwarted by Judas' refusal to do his dastardly deed?

    I also wonder why this deed had to happen; after all, all the people knew Jesus. It wasn't like He worked undercover and had to have a "plant" to finger Him!
     
  4. Wes Outwest

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    Judas was most definitely AN ELECT!

    Prophesy regarding the Messiah says so!

    John 17 SAYS SO! Judas was among those the Father gave to the Son!
     
  5. aa0310

    aa0310
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    Hello Jim62. I am not at all sure what you are saying here. My argument is that since Jesus allowed Judas to take the cup of the New Testament, which represented His blood shed on the cross, and He says that it was shed for "you" (plural in the Greek), we must conclude that the Cross or rather the Atonement of Jesus includes those who finally be lost, and therefore cannot be limited to the "elect" only! This is a very important passage that is often overlooked by those who teach a Limited Atonement.
     
  6. Wes Outwest

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    aa0310,
    The important thing to remember is that Atonement is not for people, it is for sin, regardless of who does the sinning! So, to say that Jesus atoned for this group and not that is a blatant lie! Jesus atoned for sin!

    God created people. People sin. Atonement is for sin so that people can live! If sin is not atoned, people die because of their part with sinning.

    Jesus did not atone just for some sins, He atoned for Sin, once-for-ALL. He is the only one worthy to do so!
     
  7. BrotherJoe

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    Just-Want-Peacee:Do you really believe that God's plans would have been thwarted by Judas' refusal to do his dastardly deed?

    I also wonder why this deed had to happen; after all, all the people knew Jesus


    ME: God made sure his plans would not be thwarted.

    "22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

    23Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God , ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain

    24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. " (Acts 2:22-24)


    Brother Joe
     
  8. aa0310

    aa0310
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    Hi Wes, Outwest

    What is the point that you are making? Where in the Bible do you read that Christ did not die for people? Sin is something real people like you and I comit. It is for us, real people, that Jesus died on the cross! "For God so loved the world..." is speaking of the world of people, not the world of sin! So, I am not sure what you mean? I hold to the Biblical position of Universal Atonement, but NOT Universal Salvation. That is, Jesus' death was for everyone without exception, that all CAN be saved, but not that all WILL be saved!
     
  9. Wes Outwest

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    AA0310,
    All through scripture, atonement is for the sins of the people not for the people! It is the means God established for man to deal with sins. It is that pattern that Jesus followed when He Died ONCE for all for the sins of the world. Jesus' purpose in dying was to remove the power that sin had over man, thus making it possible for man to have everlasting life through faith in God. The fact that people are the beneficiary of Jesus' magnificant gift is the result of Jesus atoning for sin.

    I agree with your last two sentences, for that is what I too believe.
     
  10. ILUVLIGHT

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    Hi aa0310;
    Good post It is my hope that some will come to the same conclusion. A men
    May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
    Mike [​IMG]
     
  11. johnp.

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    Hello just-want-peace.

    It's a good point. Jesus was certainly well known and the movement would have been under surveillance, or should have been.
    I think the authorities would have felt safer if it was one of Jesus' disciples that handed Him over. It would have dissipated any anger felt by the mob. It would also tend to cause hesitation and doubt among the people.
    Judas must have seemed like a God send to the authorities.
    The past is how it was.

    Wes
    JN 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: `He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
    Judas was not one of the elect. He was given power and authority to work miracles but power and authority is not salvation. Salvation comes only if you are chosen as Jesus said.

    johnp.
     
  12. Wes Outwest

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    Johnp,
    Did Jesus not accept Judas Ascariot into his "inner circle"? Did Jesus not choose him? Was that choice not made to fulfill scripture?

    Yes, Jesus did choose Judas Ascariot for the purpose of fulfilling prophesy.

    Was Judas predestined to salvation? No, because Judas did not come to faith in Jesus, but went out on his own and betrayed Jesus. There are many like that in the church today! They hang around just long enough to be able to do "damage" to the body of Christ, do their deeds, then disappear. 'Wolves in sheeps clothing' is the description that fits.
     
  13. johnp.

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    Wes.

    Inner circle? He was the money bags. Can't get more in than that.
    Did Jesus not choose him? Did He not choose Pharaoh?
    JN 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: `He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
    Judas was not elected.
    The construction of your sentence is wrong. It should read, "Judas did not come to faith in Jesus because he was not predestined to salvation? No, but Judas went out on his own and betrayed Jesus." And it was night.
    Don't forget Eli's house they were also in the inner circle. They served at the sacrifices to the Lord. :cool:
    Many are called few are chosen. The choice to include Judas as one of His disciples was based on the scripture that said he would lift up his heel against Jesus.
    How can you say that Judas did not believe in God? He rubbed shoulders with Him, ate with Him and did miracles with power that man only dream about. How can you say Judas did not believe in Jesus as he went and topped himself in grief. What difference was there between him and Peter? Peter was chosen. Peter did neglect the same thing Judas did. Neither asked forgiveness but Jesus sought Peter out but Judas will be sorted out. :cool:
    And some hang around longer.

    johnp.
     
  14. Wes Outwest

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    I said not that Judas did not believe in God, I said that he did not have faith in Jesus. Even the demons believe in Jesus.

    The only difference that I see in scripture is that Judas was chosen to fulfill prophesy the same as Peter was chosen to fulfill prophesy, the difference is Judas fulfilled the one about "one of his friends will betray him", while Peter, along with the remaining ten would fulfill a different prophesy. Yes Judas was an elect! Chosen to fulfill a specific role in God's plan of Salvation for man. He was a resounding success!
     
  15. johnp.

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    Wes.

    And the difference between their believing and your believing is what exactly?

    johnp.
     
  16. dianetavegia

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    Demons don't accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

    Demons believe and tremble....
     
  17. johnp.

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    Hello dianetavegia.

    And the difference between their believing and your believing is what exactly?
    That the demons do not accept Jesus as Lord as you say does not mean that that causes a difference in belief. The fallen angels know the Lord is Lord, that is why they tremble, they believe the Lord is Lord without a doubt.
    The demons cannot accept Jesus as their Saviour, He is not their Saviour.

    johnp.
     
  18. dianetavegia

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    I'm not a Calvinist, JohnP. so we speak a different language.
     
  19. johnp.

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    Hello dianetavegia.

    Would you like me to rephrase it?

    johnp.
     
  20. dianetavegia

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    I understand what you imply but we'll disagree all night so it's a waste of time. [​IMG] I accepted Christ as my Lord and Savior.
     

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