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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by SaggyWoman, Aug 30, 2001.
Yes. So what is the point?
Doc Cassidy said in another post that he wasn't... . .
I believe that although he was there, he was sent out by Jesus before the bread and wine.
But not sure.
Oh boy, Dr. Cassidy, watch out! SaggyWoman is after you for alleging that Judas wasn’t participating in the last supper.
I don’t know, but this is very serious! And now Katie joined forces with Saggy. If I were you, I would duck because these two are about to throw the good Book at you! You seem to be in big trouble my friend. You need some kind of defense. You need some fail-safe strategy. You need to get back to the Word!
No trouble at all. The bible says he left, and I will take the bible's word for it any day.
Now Dr. Cassidy, you know that these ladies would want you to give chapter and verse...
Doc Cassidy, I gave you chapter and verse that state he was there... .
Matthew's account 26:25ff <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said. And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the . . . "<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Mark's account 14:18ff <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I? And he answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve, that dippeth with me in the dish. The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take, eat: this is my body . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Luke's account 22:14ff <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: for I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: for I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>John's account 13:1ff <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end. And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him; Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself . . .
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>and later in 13:26 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. He then having received the sop went immediately out: and it was night.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This detailed 4th account adds the insight that Judas left early!
The Seder meal begins with a part of the ceremony, then "supper" - a full meal. Then, at the conclusion of the evening -- well AFTER the meal itself -- the afikomen (hidden matzoh) and the last glasses of wine are consumed. It was THEN that Jesus instituted the "Lord's Supper".
One more point - part of the confusion comes from the AV "the supper being ended" makes the casual reader to think all parts of the feast were concluded.
Greek "deipnon genomenou" is simply "the main feast taking place . . ." and that simple English could help settle out time chronology.
So, if I can paraphrase what I read you writing, you say that Judas was present at the "Last Supper", but left prior to the "Lord's Supper."
Did I understand you correctly?
All that other stuff was Greek to me.
Yes, but John,s account does'nt continue, after Judas left, with any continuation of the meal itself, just with Jesus' continuing
conversation with the rest of the diciples.
I have a question,
When Jesus said it was one who would dip after Him, did He say this only to John, or out loud, if out loud then why would Judas dip next? It would only identify him.
Does that make any sense?
I have always wondered this.
Jesus, as the Master of the Feast, would have had the first food. ALL of the disciples would have dipped after Him - indicating a traitor AMONG them, but not which one.
And yes, you got it right. Judas was there for the Feast but NOT for the institution of the Lord's Supper at the conclusion of the Feast. He was out making a deadly deal . .
But I don't see where Judas left before the "institution" of the Lord's Supper.. .. .
Okay, Saggy - the only way we learn is to think it through together. Started when we learned the alphabet, and still works for ME!
Here is a time/chronology for those not familiar with how the Passover Feast works -
J+12 have the Passover Feast (meet in an upper room)
J+12 do part one of Passover (certain rituals, questions, story of exodus, etc)
J+12 do part two of Passover (eat the main meal)
Judas leaves at Jesus' request (after dipping the sop -- part of the main meal -- Jesus said for him to do it quickly and he left)
J+11 that are left do part three of the Passover (which is where He institutes the Lord's Supper at the conclusion)
J+11 go out singing the Hallel Psalms toward their camp grounds east of the Temple, at the base of the Mt. of Olives
J+11 talk and teach all the way (recorded in John in great detail)
J prays (while 11 sleep)
Judas returns to the group, with the Temple Guards to arrest Jesus
Hope this helps
okay, Dr. Bob. match the Bible verses up to this.. . they don't match.. .
In fact, in the Luke version, it states that Judas was at the institution of the Lord's Supper. .. . .
Sorry Saggywomen, but Dr. Bob is correct, the verses do "line up" and Luke does not say Judas was present for the inauguration of the Lord's Supper. All Luke does is not mention that Judas departed, but John did, so we know it is true.
But in Luke 22:21 it says But behold, the hnad of the one betraying me is with mine on the table. .. Which verses institutes the Lord's supper in Luke?
In the John passage. . .it does say Judas left early, but only lists after that where Jesus talks with his disciples, never instituting the Lord's Supper. ..
I really am having trouble seeing it. . ..
Luke recounted the details of the Lord’s Supper topically, not chronologically. Matthew and Mark placed Jesus’ warning about the betrayer prior to the giving of the bread and cup; Luke put it afterward. Only John 13:30 records Judas’ departure, but John says nothing about the bread and cup. So it is difficult to tell by comparison whether Judas left before or after the institution of the Lord’s Supper. But Luke’s words here seem to imply that Judas actually shared in that event. If so, his presence at that table makes his hypocrisy and crime all the more despicable (1 Cor. 11:27–30).