Justification from everlasting !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jul 12, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Ps 103:17

    17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

    I do not think it will be argued that Justification by Faith is a very great mercy to experience in this life. This mercy was not just random or by chance , or by freewill, but was established as a sure mercy from everlasting. God, the everlasting God, Preached the gospel of Justification to Abraham centuries ago Gal 3:8

    8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

    which is referring to Gen 12:3

    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    But now what was the previous bases for this Mercy ? I believe it was the everlasting Covenant which is what Ps 103:17 is referring to, as the Mercy from everlasting.

    I believe Jesus coming in the incarnation was a effect of that Covenant and why He is called the promised mercy.

    Lk 1:67-73,77,78

    67And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,

    68Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

    69And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

    70As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

    71That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

    72To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

    73The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,


    77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

    78Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, !

    So Christ coming to die for His People is the fruition of the everlasting covenant. His coming was an act of mercy, in that He would give himself, his soul an offering for sin, for the transgressions of God's People.
     
  2. Doubting Thomas

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    Notice that justification is through faith. There is no justification apart from faith.
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    dt:

    Thats error. There is Justification by the blood of Christ. Rom 5:9

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    This verse says nothing about Faith, but the blood of Christ.

    Also, the text says that the Mercy of the Lord is From Everlasting as well as to everlasting.

    Ps 103:17

    17But the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

    God's made them in Mercy and determined to do so before the world began, He created them Vessels of Mercy Rom 9:23

    And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    In time God gives them a New Birth according to His Mercy 1 Pet 1:

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

    Thats why they fear Him, they are given a heart to fear Him Jer 32:39

    And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:

    More later...
     
  4. Doubting Thomas

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    It doesn't matter what that one verse does not say--the verse you quoted above clearly stated that one is justified through faith (Gal 3:8)--I merely highlighted that portion in the verse you posted. Plus in Romans 3:26 Paul states God is the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus, and in 3:24 Pauls states one is justified by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. In Ephesians 1:7 that we have redemption and forgiveness IN HIM through His blood--in otherwords, one must be in Him by faith to have access to the redemption and forgiveness that is through His blood. EVEN in ROMANS CHAPTER 5, the very chapter you quote from, Paul states: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand." (Romans 5:1,2)

    So you're argument is not with me but with Paul and Scripture. (I could post numerous other verses to the same effect, but I imagine you'll ignore what you don't like and continue to argue from silence.)
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    It matters to me. Rom 5:9

    9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

    I will add another one with that one. Titus 3:7

    That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    Nothing about Faith in this verse either ! But the Grace of God..
     
  6. Doubting Thomas

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    You totally ignored the whole point I made about that in my last post--I'm not surprised.
     
  7. Pastor_Bob

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    Romans 14:23b ...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin. (KJV)
     
  8. savedbymercy

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    The point is, you have ignored my points, and I am not suprised !
     
  9. savedbymercy

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    ok I believe that ! But what does that have to do with Justification which God doeth ? Rom 8:33

    Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    The scripture you bring in here is in the context of what the believer does or not do according to conscience.
     
  10. Doubting Thomas

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    No--I did NOT ignore your point. On the contrary I provided you with Paul's own words to show that justification is by faith, including these verses in the same chapter as Romans 5:9 in order to provide you with some much needed context: "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand" Romans 5:1,2
     
  11. Doubting Thomas

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    Yes, it is God who justifies, but He justifies believers--the ones who have faith in His Son. This is abundantly taught in Scripture.
     
  12. Pastor_Bob

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    Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (KJV)

    We are certainly justified through His blood, but not without appropriating that justification through repentance and faith.
     
  13. Doubting Thomas

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    Exactly! :thumbs:
     
  14. billwald

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    Telling God whom he may and may not regenerate? God is not permitted to regenerate those who have never heard of Jesus?
     
  15. Doubting Thomas

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    We don't know what God does specifically in regards to those who have never heard. However, we do know that He has told us that he justifies and saves and raises us to life in Christ through faith.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    Actually, He Justifies the Ungodly . Rom 4:5

    But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    And again, The elect were reconciled to God, by the Death of Christ, even while they were Ungodly or enemies ! Rom 5:10


    10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    That proves without a shadow of doubt that those Christ died for were already Justified before God before they believed.

    For to be reconciled to God and Justified are basically the same thing. Because being reconciled means a removal of God's Wrath and being accepted in His Favor. Its the greek word katallassō which means:


    to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value

    a) to reconcile (those who are at variance)

    b) return to favour with, be reconciled to one

    c) to receive one into favour

    This is True because God's wrath has been propitiated by the blood of Christ. Its impossible to be reconciled to God without being Justified. And again, this is while they are enemies, meaning unbelievers. I don't believe you understand what Christ blood and death actually accomplished !

    So far, you have not been able to prove what I am presenting wrong, because you can't.
     
  17. Doubting Thomas

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    I notice you didn't bold the second part of that verse, so I took the liberty to underline in it for you. "His faith is counted for righteousness" means he is justified (ie reckoned righteous) by his faith. The ungodly--ie one who has no meritorious works to offer God--is justified/counted righteous when he has faith.


    Again, you ignore the surrounding context (particular 5:1-2) and all the other verses I quoted earlier in which Paul teaches we are justified through faith. "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand" Romans 5:1,2 (*BTW--having peace with God is pretty much the same as being reconciled, is it not? And this verse teaches such peace with God occurs subsequent to our being justified by faith)


    I know full well what it accomplished. I also know that according to Romans 3:25 the propitiation by His blood is appropriated THROUGH FAITH.


    You're right--as long as you continue to ignore the teaching of numerous scriptures, then no one will be able to "prove" what you are "presenting" is wrong :rolleyes:
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    Justification from everlasting ! continued
    So Christ coming to die for His People is the fruition of the everlasting covenant. His coming was an act of mercy, in that He would give himself, his soul an offering for sin, for the transgressions of God's People.

    Isa 53:8-11

    8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

    9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

    10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

    11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

    Now no one can read this and not perceive that Christ came into the world with the sin burden [imputed] of His People He was to die for. Was not that evident from His prayer right before his crucifixion in the garden. Was not the cup He was to drink, the punishment for the imputed Transgressions of the Elect of God Matt 26:38
    -42

    38Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.

    39And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

    40And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?

    41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

    42He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

    Lk 22:44

    And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

    I believe this vividly shows That sin had been laid to His charge already.

    Now here is the big question that needs to be answered, When was this cup laid to His Charge ? We know it was before the actual cross, for the foregoing event in the garden supposes that ! The cup of the imputed guilt of The sins of God's People was laid on Him from everlasting, as the Surety of the Everlasting Covenant.

    He struck hands as it were with the Father to become its Surety Prov 6:1

    My son, if thou be surety for thy friend, if thou hast stricken thy hand with a stranger,

    Now if this be True, then it must also be True, that God, from everlasting, never laid to the charge the iniquities of them Christ had become a Surety for, because God could not now hold them both responsible, that is Christ and them He covenanted for.

    This would be therefore their Justification from everlasting. How can those who God will not impute sin, not be Justified ?

    Thats why Paul wrote in Rom 8:33

    33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    We plainly see here that non imputed charges = God Justifying !

    Here we have it, God not laying any charges on His elect, because they were laid upon their surety, constitutes their Justification before Him.

    The only way this Truth can be denied, or not true, is Christ not having become a surety for the sins of Gods elect from everlasting..
     
  19. Doubting Thomas

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    It's only by ignoring a good chunk of what Paul add already written in this same epistle (ie being justified/reckoned righteous by faith)--not to mention in his other epistles as well--and importing a lot of unwarranted assumptions into your interpretation of what Paul might mean by "election" that you can come to this 'conclusion'. If "your views" about this particular passage are correct (hypothetically, of course), then it would render meaningless the numerous texts which teach about the necessity of faith for salvation/justification, thus nullifying Scriptures by your man-made tradition.
     
  20. savedbymercy

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    I am very familiar with that verse, and there was a reason why I did not highlight that part of the verse, and that's because the first part needed to be emphasized as paul did. Now, Faith here means the object of Abraham's Faith was His Righteousness, which was Christ. Abraham had the Gospel Preached to Him Gal 3:8 and A Righteousness of God was revealed to Him, from Faith to Faith Rom 1:16-17

    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Abraham through the Gospel preached to Him, Had it revealed to Him that The coming seed of His was going to die for his sins and that Righteousness was laid to His account, and so His Faith, The object of His Faith, which was Christ and His Righteousness had been laid to His account. Remember Faith is not a Justified mans righteousness, but Christ is. Faith reveals it !

    1 Cor 1:30

    30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

    Before Abraham believed or obeyed anything, God revealed to Him the promised seed. Gen 12:1-3

    1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

    2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

    3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

    Abraham was Justified before God right then and there. Before that even, while He was a ungodly idolater with His house.
     
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