Justified before saved !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Sep 15, 2012.

  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy
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    Are the Elect of God Justified before God before they are saved from their sins ?

    One of the problems with false religion is that they do not understand that the Elect are Justified before God, legally acquitted from all Punishment for their sins, while they are in a Lost state by Nature, and that is what they need to be saved from. The Elect have always been saved from the penalty of their sins by Election of Grace in Christ !

    Its liken to the Prodigal Son, he was always an Heir of Heaven but became estranged or alienated from his Father by his sin !

    While being Alienated in a Life of sin, as the prodigal was, so It is with the Elect, they are Lost until they are found by the redemptive work of the Son is effected upon them, upon their conversion and return to God, it is stated thusly Lk 15:24

    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    You see, his lostness was in his estrangement and alienation from God, as it is with the Elect in a lost state Eph 4:18

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Col 1:21

    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled



    That was the issue with the prodigal, he became alienated and a enemy in his mind when he fell Lk 15:12-13

    12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

    13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

    You see, going into sin was like going into a far country ! You know why ? Because he was really an Heir of Heaven, and when he is restored to right mind, he knows he is really a stranger in this earth,m in this far country.

    But during all this time before his repentance being granted Lk 15:17

    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

    he was always a Justified heir of heaven and beloved of his Father, but he did because of his willful alienation need to be saved from a Lost condition, but he was always forgiven and a heir of heaven !
     
  2. The Biblicist

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    What a outright false doctrine! Again, you have been utterly incapable of answering my exposition of Romans 4:6-10. Have you no shame? You can't answer it and yet you attempt to assert this absolute nonsense?
     
  3. savedbymercy

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    Prove it false !
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    I have already proved it to be false as Paul explicity and clearly states the both imputation of righteousness and non-imputation (Rom. 4:6-8)of sin occured "IN CIRCUMCISION" (Rom. 4:10).

    The absolute proof you are wrong is you can't respond to Paul's own words as to "when" he said it occurred!
     
  5. savedbymercy

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    the bib

    No you have not, you have not touched nothing in the OP:

    Here it is again:

    Are the Elect of God Justified before God before they are saved from their sins ?

    One of the problems with false religion is that they do not understand that the Elect are Justified before God, legally acquitted from all Punishment for their sins, while they are in a Lost state by Nature, and that is what they need to be saved from. The Elect have always been saved from the penalty of their sins by Election of Grace in Christ !

    Its liken to the Prodigal Son, he was always an Heir of Heaven but became estranged or alienated from his Father by his sin !

    While being Alienated in a Life of sin, as the prodigal was, so It is with the Elect, they are Lost until they are found by the redemptive work of the Son is effected upon them, upon their conversion and return to God, it is stated thusly Lk 15:24

    24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

    You see, his lostness was in his estrangement and alienation from God, as it is with the Elect in a lost state Eph 4:18

    Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

    Col 1:21

    And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled



    That was the issue with the prodigal, he became alienated and a enemy in his mind when he fell Lk 15:12-13

    12 And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.

    13 And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.

    You see, going into sin was like going into a far country ! You know why ? Because he was really an Heir of Heaven, and when he is restored to right mind, he knows he is really a stranger in this earth,m in this far country.

    But during all this time before his repentance being granted Lk 15:17

    17 And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!

    he was always a Justified heir of heaven and beloved of his Father, but he did because of his willful alienation need to be saved from a Lost condition, but he was always forgiven and a heir of heaven !

    Now show us what is unscriptural about any scriptural point I made !
     
  6. The Biblicist

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    Paul explicitly and literally addresses the "how" and "when" of the time of justification in Romans 4:10 and repudiates your whole theory!

    What is your response? Not a word! Instead you attempt to establish your false doctrine just like cults do ON PARABLES, spiritualizations, etc.

    Don't you understand the abc's of Biblical interpetation? Doctrine cannot be established by parables but only by explicit clear precepts of scripture which are then SUPPORTED by parables, spiritualizations, etc.

    Your parabolic inferences are explicitly repudiated by the clear explicit precept in Romans 4:10


     
  7. savedbymercy

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    Folks a Person is Justified before God before they are saved experientially, in the same way they are reconciled to God by the Death of His Son before they are saved experientially, so Paul makes this promise to all, even while being enemies, that have been reconciled by Christ Death, being reconciled, He writes "we shallk be saved by His Life !! Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    Now why , since they are reconciled, do they still need to be saved ? Because they were reconciled while still being enemies by nature ! They now need to be saved from their alienation and natural enmity they have towards God, but not God towards them, He is already received them into His Favor based upon the Death of Christ ! I sare anyone to prove anything i said here not scriptural !

    And running to Rom 4 is not going to cut it !
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Not so! They were reconciled by God "in Christ" on the cross (2 Cor. 5:19) in the same sense they were justified, regenerated, glorified by Christ on the cross and by the etenal purpose of God- OBJECTIVE purpose and provision but not SUBJECTIVE and ACTUAL APPLICATION.

    According to God's eternal purpose we are seen as regenerated, converted, sanctified and glorified in an OBJECTIVE sense only. According to Christ's finished work of atonement we are redeemed completely and fully as well but only in an OBJECTIVE legal sense only. Neither have anything to do with ACTUAL APPLICATION as that is not the work of the Father or the Son.
     
    #8 The Biblicist, Sep 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  9. savedbymercy

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    They were reconciled to God by the Death of Christ, its stated right here!

    Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
     
  10. plain_n_simple

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    Are the Elect of God Justified before God before they are saved from their sins ?

    No
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    Let me address this issue from another direction and perhaps that might help you to understand what I am saying. Do you agree to the following statements:

    1. The elect were reconciled to God before the world began in God's eternal Purpose?

    2. The elect were reconciled to God through Christ on the cross?

    3. The elect are given a "ministry of reconciliation" whereby they call on the elect "to be reconciled to God"?

    Here is the crux of your problem of interpretation and theology. How were the elect reconciled to God on the cross DIFFERENTLY than they were reconciled to God before the world began? If there is no difference than why the cross? Why in eternity and again in time?

    Here is the correct solution and the proper basis of interpreting all three reconciliations to God:

    1. The elect were reconciled to God before the world began by OBJECTIVE PURPOSE.

    2. The elect were reconciled to God on the cross by OBJECTIVE LEGAL PROVISION.

    3. The elect were reconciled to God through "the word of reconciliation" or the "ministry of reconciliation" by SUBJECTIVE APPLICATION through faith in the gospel.


    However, you theory makes the cross unnecessary as you have the same kind of reconciliation to God before the world began by eternal purpose.

    Your theory cannot be reconciled with Romans 4:10 but mine can be reconciled with the eternal purpose of reconciliation, the cross of reconciliation as well as the gospel of reconciliation.

    So here is your problem. If you quote Romans 8:33 I simply point to the purpose of God in Romans 8:28 as the Objective purpose that is implemented in time.

    If you quote 2 Cor. 5:29 I simply admit that the cross provided the OBJECTIVE LEGAL BASIS but not its SUBJECTIVE APPLICATION to the elect. My position harmonizes all scriptures and I need not pit scripture against scripture. Your position requires INCONSISTENCY and INCOMPETANCY as you must PIT scripture against scripture (Rom. 4:10).
     
    #11 The Biblicist, Sep 15, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2012
  12. savedbymercy

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    Yes, from the sins they would yet commit in Adam at the commencement of the World and of course from their own personal sins, as they were also in Christ their Covenant Surety at this time by Election !

    Yes, the Cross was always the Meritorious cause of their Reconciliation even before the World was and is why their sins could not be imputed to them legally and with condemnation !

    Yes, because even though Legally Reconciled by the Cross, they are born sinners and estranged from God like the prodical son became estranged from his inheritance, but even the prodical would be still legally a son ! However experientially he was associated and identified with those of a far country !

    So by nature even though the Elect are Legally reconciled, born having all their sins already atoned for, yet subjectively they still need to be saved or converted out of their native state of enmity ! However their sins are still forgiven at this time !

    Before the World began they had not yet sinned and been made sinners ! But when it did happen, they were legally already Justified. God imputed not their legal condemnation upon them, Christ had already contracted for that, but He did impute them into alienation and estrangement ! Problem solved !

    The reconciliation at the Cross was when Christ made good their legal basis for reconciliation before the world began.

    I already explained to you, that the Cross was merely Christ's satisfying His debt [by imputation] He had with God on behalf of the Elect. The elect were released from legal debt upon Christ's agreement to pay the debt before the world began !
     
  13. The Biblicist

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    Listen, salvation is inclusive of A-Z (purpose election, predestinaton, foreknowledge, regeneration, justification, santification, glorification, etc.).

    Before the world began the elect obtained salvation as defined above BY OBJECTIVE PURPOSE but not by subjective application - Isa. 46:11; Rom. 8:28

    At the cross the elect obtained salvation as defined above as an OBJECTIVE LEGAL BASIS but not by subjective application - 2 Cor. 5:19

    It is the covenant work of the Holy Spirit to obtain salvation as defined above by SUBJECTIVE Application. - Rom. 4:6-10

    By "objective" I mean it had no actual application to their experience or person but with that goal or design intended. By "subjective" I mean it is actually applied to their own person and experience.
     
  14. savedbymercy

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    The reconciliation at the Cross was when Christ made good their legal basis for reconciliation before the world began.

    Also Reconciliation or Justification before the World began is the Fruit of Christ's Death ! So this exposes your wickedness against the Merits of Christ's Death apart from the Work of the Spirit which occurs in time when He applies the Merits of Christ's Death in New Birth ! His application Work is solely based upon the Merits of Christ's Death which you blaspheme and call worthless apart from the Spirit's Work, something the Spirit Himself would dare to say. May God deal with you according to your works in the day of Judgment !
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    You got it backwards!

    The cross made good the OBJECTIVE legal basis for reconciliation purposed in eternity but only applied or implemented by the Holy Spirit in time and in the experience of the elect.

    You contradict Isaiah 46:11 as you make Purpose EQUAL to implementation and that is a lie you are telling and perversion of God's Word you are guilty of.
     
  16. savedbymercy

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    The reconciliation at the Cross was when Christ made good their legal basis for reconciliation before the world began.

    Also Reconciliation or Justification before the World began is the Fruit of Christ's Death ! So this exposes your wickedness against the Merits of Christ's Death apart from the Work of the Spirit which occurs in time when He applies the Merits of Christ's Death in New Birth ! His application Work is solely based upon the Merits of Christ's Death which you blaspheme and call worthless apart from the Spirit's Work, something the Spirit Himself would dare to say. May God deal with you according to your works in the day of Judgment !
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    Obviously, it is a waste of time to discuss anything with you as you have no more capacity than a parrot in your responses.
     
  18. savedbymercy

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    The Merit of Christ's Death alone did this ?

    As important as the Spirit's application of the atonement is for the Elect experiencing conversion, nevertheless, the death of Christ alone has its own accomplishments apart from the work of the Spirit and before the Elect Believe, but are still in unbelief. These scriptures will declare that reconciliation is the actual effect of Christ's Death Rom 5:10

    10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    All the Elect of God are reconciled / justified solely by the Death of Christ ! This is apart from the Spirit's Applicatory Saving Work which is promised to occur at a later time in this verse !

    However to teach that Christ's Death alone, apart from from the Spirit's Application is worthless, is Antichrist and Blasphemy !
     
  19. savedbymercy

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    The Merit of Christ's Death alone did this ?

    By the Merits of the Death of Christ alone, apart from any Application Work of the Spirit, we have [If Elect] Redemption, the Forgiveness of sins or the Non Imputation of sins according to the riches of God's Grace Eph 1:7

    7 In whom we have redemption [not we shall have] through his blood[Death], the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Redemption here means:

    a releasing effected by payment of ransom, Which is the Blood of Christ. The Holy Spirit has nothing to do with this Payment, for He did not die for nobody's sins, He did not shed any Blood.

    To say that His Work is Needed for this Redemption that the Elect HAVE by the Blood of Christ is Antichrist, its being an enemy to the Cross and Blood of Christ !
     
  20. SovereignMercy

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    Our justification is ordained from eternity but accomplished in time. There is an order of salvation that is clear from the texts below. We haven't been glorified yet and we were called in time which occurred before our justification. Savedbymercy, you clearly ignore the texts below. Why?

    Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

    Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

    Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

    We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

    But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

    Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
     

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