Kagan's own notes blasted homeschoolers

Discussion in 'News / Current Events' started by ReformedBaptist, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist
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    http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=187133

    Elena Kagan, whose nomination to the U.S. Supreme Court likely will be before the full U.S. Senate for a vote soon, has suggested state regulations are "little" burden for homeschoolers, according to notes she made on a case while she was clerking for Justice Thurgood Marshall.

    According to documentation uncovered by the Home School Legal Defense Association, Kagan advised Powell during the 1980s when a court case developed in Ohio in which a Christian family decided to homeschool their child.

    The parents were convicted of not getting the superintendent's permission, and the case was appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court, whose justices refused to intervene.

    As part of that work, Kagan reviewed the arguments for Marshall and suggested an outcome.

    "[Petitioners] are self-described born-again Christians who adhere to a literal interpretation of the Bible and have little sympathy with the secular world," she wrote.
     
  2. menageriekeeper

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    I can see both sides to this one.

    The state does seem to have an interest in seeing to it that children are educated.

    Parents should have the right to educate their children themselves.

    Where do the paths cross?

    In this case it seems that the state had rules in place for homeschoolers that simply weren't followed. (I'm an HSLDA member so I read their concerns directly from their website) The suit didn't seem to be about whether the state had rules that were intended to stop parents from educating their children, just that the parents didn't follow the rules period and then were upset that the state complained.

    In this case, I'm pretty much undecided. I don't like Kagan for other reasons though, so this just adds more fuel to that fire.
     
  3. Ruiz

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    From a Christian worldview, this is not the responsibility of Government. Even if they were to have an "interest", God designed two entities for education: the family and the church. For the government to force a family to participate in their "approval" of education, when God has given it to the family, is an overstepping of the bounds of Government against the family.

    There are three governments: the state, the church, and the family. I believe in a separation of powers of all three.
     
  4. menageriekeeper

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    "Christian worldview"? Let me see some scriptural support for that.

    My Bible says we are to live IN the world yet not be of it. What about that says that because we are Christians we don't have to follow the laws of our civil gov, because they don't fit a "Christian worldview"?

    Oh, and while we are on the subject of government. My church holds no authority over me that I don't allow it. I need no high priest. The church is there for instruction and fellowship, not to tell me how to educate my children or in what setting I must educate my children. I'm not Muslim and I will follow no Sharia-like law. That is what you are suggesting when say the church is or should be a form of government.
     
  5. Ruiz

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    Show me scripture where education is given to the government.

    I can show you a myriad of verses where education is given the the family. From Deuteronomy to Proverbs. I can give you evidence that the family is a separate Governmental entity with the responsibility distinct from Government in raising children. I can show you where my responsibility is to "raise up a child in the way He should go..." In other words, I can show you where the Bible tells me to be the parent. Raising kids belongs to the parents.

    I cannot show you where Government should be raising kids, educating kids, or trying to play the role of a parent and "requiring parents" to meet the Government's standards.

    So, can you show me where Government should be parents? I can show you where parents should be parents... but I do not see where Government should be parents. Can you show me where Government should force parents to parent the way Government wants?
     
  6. jaigner

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    That describes a lot of homeschoolers I know. Not all, but a lot.
     
  7. menageriekeeper

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    Yeah, okay. Show me where the Bible says it is ANYONE's responsibility to teach a child to read, write and do math. Cause I've evidently missed that. What you are doing is applying scriptures that tell a parent how to raise a child in the Lord, to educating that child overall, with no more than your own opinion to lead one to that conclusion.

    And I agree. But "raising" kids and teaching them to read and write are two different things. As much as I hate what public education has become in this country, there is no doubt that without it many, many of our citizens would be illiterate. I'm one of the lucky 40% of citizens in my county that graduated from high school even with public education available!

    We don't live in a "Christian" country where all parents believe their children should be educated. Many, many Christians I know would fail to educate their children if left to their own devices. My own mother was the product of a Free Will Baptist preacher who put his girls to work in the cotton fields as soon as they left 6th grade cause they didn't "need" any more education than that to marry and bear children. The boys were allow to decide for themselves if they wanted to continue school. AT 12 YEARS OLD!!!

    And you say our gov doesn't have a vested interest in the education of our citizens? Do you want us to become a Third World nation? Because that is what you are advocating. Third world nations have no interest in the education of their citizenry. Thats why their citizens are all trying to come here! Some education is better than none!

    Let me see.....no, I don't believe that the gov has ever said how I should parent my kids. They've told me I had to keep them fed, sheltered, reasonably clean and educated. And that my friend is a whole lot different than telling me how to parent.

    If you don't like our laws, then change them. Go to www.parentalrights.org and join in the fight for this very worthy bill that sets reasonable limits on what the gov can force us to do.

    But don't make a mountain out of a molehill. Asking parents to report how they are educating their children isn't an infringment on their right to parent.
     
  8. RAdam

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    The government has absolutely no right to tell me how to educate my children. None. We plan on homeschooling. That's my business, not theirs.
     
  9. RAdam

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    By the way, spare me concerning education in this country. Our public education system is a joke now. We continually lower our standards. Public education is not the best option for a Christian family today, and soon won't be an option at all.

    I know plenty of homeschoolers who are Christian and their kids, I guarantee you, are ahead of their public school counterparts. It is absolutely the job of parents to teach their children the bible, to teach them right from wrong, and parents are largely failing at these issues. They've learned to pawn their kids off on the church and the state to do what they won't. Homeschoolers form the majority of this exception (not all of it, mind you).

    Public education is a failure. My wife is a former teacher and she'll be the first to tell you this. We are "educating" people, but they don't know much when they graduate except how to take a standardized test. They surely don't know how to reason, they don't know much useful information, don't know anything about history, and generally don't care about learning things just for the sake of knowing. I wonder just how many high school graduates could read Washington's farewell presidential address and understand it.
     
  10. Bob Alkire

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    Depends on which state you live in. Some are anti homeschooling some aren't and some stay out of it for the most part.

    My father came back from Europe after WWII and took my brother out of public school and never allowed me to go. I took a course or two and played ball, but he wouldn't tell them the day of the week. I never send my children to public school and never had to say anything to the state till the Florida Education Ass. ( teachers union) began making waves. Now I just register under an umbrella Christian school and they ( state) leave me alone. I allowed my daughter to take the Florida Cat Test last year and she did well.
     
  11. menageriekeeper

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    Did you follow the link. That is part of what the parental rights bill is all about. HOW.

    Oh, and I am a homeschooler and my state does NOT tell me HOW to educate my children. They only tell me that I MUST educate my children.

    There is a big difference between HOW and MUST.

    In my state I prove that I am educating my children by registering with a church school (umbrella school), a private school or a private tutor and keep a record of, get this, their attendance. Not their grades, not what cirric we use, no standardized testing, zip, just attendance.

    Now, some states have more rigorous laws than Alabama. Then again, I live in Alabama for the very reason that we don't have such laws. My choice. If I chose to live elsewhere, I'd either have to follow their laws or get off my butt and get them changed.

    I know homeschoolers from all over the country. Even those who live in high regulation states homeschool successfully and without interference within the laws of those states. These laws are not to burdensome to be considered an infringement of our rights as parents.
     
  12. RAdam

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    I'm not saying the government is currently involved in telling parents how to educate their children, although that could happen one day. I'm saying that the government has no right to get involved at all. The education of my children is my business, not theirs.
     
  13. menageriekeeper

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    I aboslutely agree with this!

    I live in a town who's schools are in the top 10 of Alabama public schools and I STILL homeschool my children and advocate others to homeschool as well. Why? Because once the kids get past 3rd grade or so, the teachers are to busy dealing with drama to teach.

    This isn't a public school problem (I should know, I go to church with half the school board!), its a parent problem!! And the public schools have allowed themselves to be saddled with children who have no wish to learn, no parental motivation to learn and couldn't sit still to learn if they were shackled to their desks.

    On top of that, our publlic school system has become the biggest social engineering project in the history of mankind. I get these things.

    None of that, however, means that the gov shouldn't try its best to have an educated citizenry and have laws that attempt to ensure that. Sorry. But we could go back to the days where only the rich kids knew how to read and write, but what good would that do for the cause of Christ?
     
  14. Ruiz

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    "Train up the child in the way he should go..." This is education. As a result, part of training a child is to be able to "Study to show thyself approved." My goal, granted, is not to compete with the school system as I am raising my children to be Godly children. However, a part of that raising is to give them an education which explores the world around them. They should be able to study and they should be taught the ways of God. This mandates more than Bible education, but all education must be Bible focused. I am also to teach my child wisdom and understanding. This requires worldview education, and a broad education.


    No, raising children and educating children are not two different things, they are one in the same. I educate my children because I am raising my children. The philosophical problem you are facing is that you want to segregate certain types of education from God. You seem to believe math, for instance, is not God centered. Math is God centered! You seem to think that writing is not a God-centered task. Writing is ultimately God Centered. You also seem to believe that we can segregate courses in education. Writing is tremendously distinct from Math is tremendously distinct from a Biblical Worldview. No, writing and math are not segregated, they are inclusive of a Biblical worldview.

    Yes, there are people who sin against God and their children by not providing an education. However, it is not the role of Government to correct poor parenting. They are there to protect kids when abuse occurs (a legitimate role of government) but not to correct all the misgivings of parents. This is not a Christian Country, but government should not tell me how to educate my children.

    I do believe Government benefits from an educated group. I, however, do not believe Government has the authority to usurp or force me to educate in the way they see fit. Look, I am all for education. In 16 days I will receive my 3rd Masters Degree. However, it is not Government's role to make me parent.

    BTW, the "third world country" illustration is bogus and a strawman argument. In fact, several studies have shown that before public education in America, we had a better literacy rate than we do now with public education. In Colonial America, where Government was not involved in education, only 4 in 1000 people could not read or write legibly. That is about where we stand with the public education system (link). Thus, in areas like Washington DC, we spend $28,000.00 per student in a public school where the exact same amount could send them to the top private schools in the country (the top four in DC are around that $28,000.00 mark). Yet, the government in DC are some of the worst schools.

    To have parental rights, which I support that group, you have to have education rights. You cannot separate the two.
     
  15. menageriekeeper

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    I believe I see our root difference: I believe allowing a child (a normal child who is capable of learning) to remain uneducated IS abuse and the gov should make an effort to ensure it doesn't happen.
     
  16. RAdam

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    The problem is, if government has an obligation to make sure I'm educating my children, it must also have an obligation to make sure I'm educating them in a proper way. After all, I could be teaching them that the earth is flat. So then, the government must ensure that I am teaching my kids acceptable things. The level of acceptance will naturally be decided by the government.

    Where can you stop government involvment in such a thing as education?
     
  17. ReformedBaptist

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    As the others have said...and if the government's responsibility to make sure that my chidlren are educated...then who is defining what is educated? Does that mean in order to be educating my children they must be taught that evlotuion is true, homosexuality is ok, birth control fine, abortion is acceptable, and other religions are good paths?

    Look at Kagan's desparaging remarks concern those Christians...that they were self-described born-again Christians, take a literal interpretation of the Bible, and have little regard for the secular world.

    Well, if that is what gets me in trouble, then praise the Lord!

    But the public school's education is secular. What is seculuar? Webster says it is " of or relating to the worldly or temporal." Is that how we as parents should be educating our children? I think both you and I would emphatically say no.

    I think the concern is justified even with the state requesting that parents get their permission to homeschool. We may declare that we are going to homeschool (which in GA we do) but that is telling the State what it is we are doing, not asking their permission.

    Imagine preachers being required to have the permission of the state to preach! God forbid. Neither should parents be required of their government to teach their children.
     
  18. Martin

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    During the Biblical times some parents did send their children off to be educated as apprentices or in religious schools. For other children, probably the majority, they stayed home and helped the family. Of course during those days children were not learning chemistry, biology, computer science, or algebra. The reason we need "professional" schools today is the nature of modern educational needs. The Bible teaches that it is the families responsibility to teach children the right way to walk (etc). However it says nothing about learning the technical skills that are necessary in today's world.

    Btw, nobody is required to send their children to government schools. In most places homeschooling is an option and Christian (or secular private) schools abound. In fact, Christian academies (usually associated with churches) are all over the place. Most large cities have dozens. Also, not all public (government) schools are bad.

    You might also be interested to know that it was the New England Puritans that, in a way, started America's public school system.

    Families are to raise their children and teach them the way of the Lord (etc). That is a clear Biblical fact. However that is not the same as teaching children job skills (mainly in the modern world). When most people worked on farms (etc) it was easy for parents to train their children at home. In the modern world, that is becoming more and more difficult.

    That verse says nothing about training for job skills.

    Government should not be "raising kids" or trying to "play the role of a parent". However parents are required to make sure they prepare their children for college and the working world. In the vast majority of cases, that means sending children to school (secular or religious).

    If anything is wrong with the "government standards" it is that they are too low. Children are better served by a highly demanding education that teaches them basic skills. When a person can graduate from high school and not know how to write his/her name, we have a problem. Could their parents have done a better job? Not likely since they most likely did not value education.
     
  19. menageriekeeper

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    Who or what defines any other law? "We the people". The problem with that is "we the people" have given over our responsibility to define questions like this to our politicians. I understand this, but just because the politicians are corrupt, doesn't mean the gov doesn't still have an interest in seeing to it that its populace has the ability/skills to make a living upon reaching adulthood.

    I haven't quite figured out why this description is being considered an insult. Like you said, quite a few people accept this as an accurate description of how they believe. Just because Kagan implied that she didn't agree with their views, doesn't mean she was trying to insult them. I am truly puzzled by the controversy over this remark. (not by the view tht gov should stay out of parents way, just the insult)

    I'd have been better convinced of her alleged stance over homeschooling, if there had been some remark given to the effect that no parent should have the right to homeschool their child. But all I have seen is furor over the insult, and little discussion as to the merits of the case, which are: the parents didn't follow the homeschooling laws of their state.

    Moot point anyhow. Seems she was confirmed yesterday in spite of having no judicial experience whatsoever (I'm sorry, working for a SCJ doesn't count when she has never had to make an actual decision!). Can anyone say, "political favor"?
     

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