King Agag's end

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Deacon, Feb 18, 2007.

  1. Deacon

    Deacon
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    Here’s a familiar story: Don’t read it in your favorite version just yet.

    Samuel tells Saul to utterly destroy Amalek, “Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey. ”
    Saul defeats the Amalakites, but spares the king and “all that was good”.
    Samuel returns giving this classic response, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears…?”.
    Saul attempts to place the blame on “the people”.
    Samuel isn’t persuaded and says something like, ‘Don’t give me that bull’
    The LORD wants obedience over sacrifice.
    And Samuel takes the kingdom from Saul.
    Then…

    Samuel has them bring him Agag, king of the Amalekites (who has just witnessed the utter defeat of his people).
    Agag says, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.”

    And comes to Samuel in what manner?


    Pick one: (there are too many to do this as a poll)

    Cautiously
    Cheerfully
    Confidently
    Daintily
    Delicately
    Dragging his feet
    Full of hope
    Gaily
    Haltingly
    In chains
    Reluctantly
    Struggling
    Trembling
    Trembling with fear



    Rob
     
  2. TCassidy

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    Cheerfully, since he had apparently gained the favor of the king.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards
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    1Sa 15:32-33 (Geneva Bible, 1587 Edition):
    Then saide Samuel, Bring yee hither to me Agag
    ye King of the Amalekites: and Agag came
    vnto him pleasantly, and Agag saide,
    Truely the bitternesse of death is passed.
    33 And Samuel sayde, As thy sworde hath made women
    childlesse, so shall thy mother bee childelesse among
    other women. And Samuel hewed Agag in pieces
    before the Lord in Gilgal
    .


    Apparently, according to the Geneve Bible, Agag came
    to Samuel 'pleasantly'. However, after meeting Samuel,
    also apparently, Agag 'went to pieces'.


     
  4. franklinmonroe

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    Good question, Deacon. It seems the Hebrew word means: 1) delightful, cheerful, joyful or 2) delicate when in regard to food.

    I thought God (through Joshua's army) had "utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek" back in Exodus 17:13-14?
     
  5. Mexdeaf

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    It appears that the Hebrew here is not clear. But IMHO 'delicately', or 'haltingly' seems to fit the context best, as indicated by Agag's own words, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” Seems that would indicate some doubt on his part rather than confidence.

    But my opin and $5 will get you a cupajava at *$.
     
  6. Mexdeaf

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    That paragon of Internet dictionaries, Wikipedia, has some interesting info and links on the Amalekites. It appears that the name may have a broader meaning that just to a specific race of people even to the Jews today. It may refer to any of the enemies of the Jews.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amalek
     
  7. Deacon

    Deacon
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    [FONT=&quot]וַיֹּ֣אמֶר שְׁמוּאֵ֗ל הַגִּ֤ישׁוּ אֵלַי֙ אֶת־אֲגַג֙ מֶ֣לֶךְ עֲמָלֵ֔ק וַיֵּ֣לֶךְ אֵלָ֔יו אֲגַ֖ג מַעֲדַנֹּ֑ת וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֲגָ֔ג אָכֵ֖ן סָ֥ר מַר־הַמָּֽוֶת׃[/FONT][FONT=&quot] ס[/FONT]​



    The word used here in 1 Samuel 15 is a tough one
    The word in Hebrew is ma˓adannôt [מַעֲדַנּוֹת] (adverb)

    It’s root is uncertain: some say it’s root is ˓anog [עָנֹג]meaning dainty.

    Here it is, used in Isaiah 47:1 (ESV)
    Come down and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon; sit on the ground without a throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans! For you shall no more be called tender and delicate [וַעֲנֻגָּה] .


    Others think it’s root is ˓anad[עָנַד ] meaning bind around, upon.
    A very similar word is used as a noun in Job 31:36 and 38:31.

    Surely I would carry it on my shoulder; I would bind [אֶעֶנְדֶנּוּ] it on me as a crown; Job 31:36 (ESV)

    “Can you bind the chains [מַעֲדַנּוֹת] of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion? (Job 38:31 ESV)

    The Greek Septuagint (LXX) uses the word translated as trembling [τρέμων].

    Here are the words that various translation use:


    Cautiously, NKJV
    Cheerfully, RSV, NAS, ESV
    Confidently, NIV
    Daintily, YLT
    Delicately, KJV
    Dragging his feet, Message
    Full of hope, NLT
    Gaily, Darby
    Haltingly, NRSV, ESV note,
    In chains, NCV, CEV
    Pleasantly, Geneva (thanks Ed)
    Reluctantly,
    Struggling, NAB
    Trembling, NET, HCSB, NIV note,
    Trembling with fear, GNT

    I wonder how many other words we read so casually in our translations are just educated guesses.
    How many of these translations provide a note saying that the meaning is uncertain?

    As usual the NET Bible provided the best notes. In fact after spending an hour or so of labor gathering the above, I see that the NET Bible notes have done a better job.
    Rob
     
  8. Libero

    Libero
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    The physical manucript evidence for both books of Samuel is in rough shape. II Samuel is in particularly poor shape.
     
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
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    So where does all this lead me?
    Here is where the debate part plays a part.

    “God-breathed” revelation is not always understandable to us today.
    >In some places we have lost it’s original meaning and can’t grasp it with 100% certainty.
    >Not surprising, even in places were it is fully understood I have often failed to grasp it’s meaning enough to apply it in my life.

    Translations are an attempt to communicate the original revelation but all translations fall short at times.
    >Multiple translations can provide a different viewpoint in difficult passages.

    Even when there are areas of doubt, the word of God is able to lead us to all truth.
    >Just because man is in doubt doesn’t mean God is in doubt.
    If it was so important an idea that needed to be communicated it would have been done in a clearer manner or in other passages of Scripture.

    Preservation of text doesn’t always mean preservation of meaning.

    Rob
     

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