Kingdom of God - Kingdom of Heaven

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Aug 24, 2006.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    Bro Bob.

    Here's that thread I "owe" you. :smilewinkgrin:

    Just for openers -- the Kingdom of Heaven is Christ's earthly kingdom. Here's why:

    1) He created it, John 1. It includes the present heaven and earth.

    2) He will deliver it up to the Father, 1Cor 15:24-28.

    3) The parables in Matthew describe it as such -- a) parables are "earthly stories with a heavenly meaning," right? This description no doubt derives from Matthew's parables of the "kingdom of heaven." What parables actually are are insights into the spiritual meaning behind a physical story. This applies to all the parables in all the gospels, right?


    4) One lesson in every parable is the time element, expecially in Matthew.

    Here's an example: There are 2 "Wedding" parables, one (Mt 22) about "guests" and one (Mt 25) about "virgins" (prospective "brides," 2Cor 11:2). These tell us about Israel in the first instance and the church in the latter.

    Kingdom of God --

    1) It is a spiritual kingdom.

    2) It is present wherever God in one of His Personages is.

    3) But His physical realm right now is the 3rd heaven, Heb 12.

    4) There is a sense in which God is in each of us -- in our "conscience" or soul.

    That ought to get the "juices" running, right? :laugh:

    skypair
     
  2. EdSutton

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    You do, of course, realize that the expending of a great deal of effort is not needed to do this, right??!! :rolleyes: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    Then apparently it still must be in existance?

    It seems to me these parables must still be true for the "wedding" he sent his deciples out again into the highways to call both the good and the bad. I think the first part was Israel indeed but then He turned to the whole world didn't He, that His table might be filled?

    You don't believe the Kingdom of Heaven is Spiritual. I thought the reason He came was to take it out of the flesh and put it down in the heart? To seek such to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and not carnal?

    I think I agree with all of this on the Kingdom of God. I still think the two intertwine and to talk about one is also to talk about the other. There is the Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost and these three are one which are inseparatable and I seem to believe the KoH and the KoG are also inseparatable. Your time.:)

    2 Kingdoms has always been a stickler with us in the Old Regular Baptist and we believe in One Kingdom but part of it here and part of it in Heaven.
     
    #3 Brother Bob, Aug 24, 2006
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  4. StraightAndNarrow

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    "Kingdom of Heaven" occurs 39 times in the New Testament, ALL IN THE BOOK OF MATHEW. Kingdom of Heaven" occurs 68 times in all four gospels. Are you claiming that only Mathew knew about the "Heaven on Earth" you're talking about?
     
  5. EdSutton

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    "I believe you mean "Kingdom of God" occurs 68 times in all four gospels."

    Language Cop
     
  6. EdSutton

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    I'm definitely going to have to do something about Ol' LC. Now he's answering for me! And even when I don't ask!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    Ed
     
  7. J. Jump

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    Same subject just different wording. Actually the Aleph text has the kingdom of heaven (should actually be translated kingdom of the heavens) in John 3 as well.
     
  8. skypair

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    S&N,

    Mathhew's perspective is of Christ as the "Lion of Judah" -- Israel's perspective. He would use the terms more appropriate to Israel's understanding, right? Better still, Matthew was trying to disclose to Israel that Messiah's kingdom was about to be set up in a different form that they were led to expect!

    skypair
     
    #8 skypair, Aug 25, 2006
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  9. skypair

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    Yes, sir.


    Actually, that would seem to be the case - especially since the servants are sent to all the world/Gentiles.

    But here's where the "classic" interpretation goes wrong -- 1) the king puts the wedding off. 2) The king is still inviting "guests," not a bride. 3) Those who go out to invite them are "servants/Jews. When do these 3 circumstances appertain? In the tribulation! Luke even says "compell them to come in." Why? Because in the tribulation ALL will be compelled to choose!

    Many of the "object lessons," like the one I just noted, are dispensational. "Guests"/Israel vs. "virgins"/church.

    How about Mt 20 -- the laborers. They were hired throughout the day but those hired at the 11th hour were called in first and paid first, 20:8. Notice they work in a "vineyard" -- among "spiritual Israel" which is both covenants, same plant (faith). Then Jesus says, "the last shall be first and the first last." Get it? Church will be first to be brought in and "paid" (pretrib rapture and Bema) and the OT saints will come in "last" though they were first -- postrib resurrection to Mt 25:14-46 judgments.

    We'll do somemore of these. Maybe you would enjoy previewing them in this light before we compare notes. Try Mt 13.


    They do, indeed, intertwine! But the kingdom of heaven can be seen -- the kingdom of God, not completely until the New Heavens and New Earth.

    So you don't believe that Christ will have a "kingdom" of His own to "deliver up" to the Father?

    Here's the way I think of it --- The physical kingdom represents the kingdom of the 3rd Person of the trinity. The spiritual is the Father's. But here's how it all ends, according to my study of the subject, God conflates Himself into One Person. When the Son delivers up His kingdom to the Father, we see that 1Cor 15:28 no longer is Christ "all in all" but God is "all in all."

    And here's the way that works -- God is the "Soul" of the godhead, the Spirit is the Spirit, and Christ is the Body for the purpose of ultimately bringing mankind into the "kingdom of God."

    Three parables in Luke 15 (i know you're read them a million times -- now read them again for the first time) tells us each One's "job" in this purpose: 1) The Son goes out and brings in the sheep. 2) The Spirit 'arranges' the marriage and maintains it (which is the significance of the 10 coins on the woman's headress of old -- she gets the headress when she marries and if she loses a coin, it signifies broken fellowship per Dr. Adrian Rogers sermons). 3) The Father's "job" is to welcome back the second of 2 sons, the prodigal, to the home which makes Israel, the first son still in the field/earth with a servant/Elijah coming to tell them about the rapture, jealous, Rom 9-11.

    skypair
     
  10. skypair

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    Ed,

    Yeah, but it is more fun this way! Hope you will be blessed.

    skypair
     
  11. Brother Bob

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    Matthew, chapter 28 to them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

    As I said, One Kingdom with part of it in Heaven and part of it here. The time will come when Death shall be swallowed up in victory and then shall the Kingdom be delievered unto the Father which will include all of the Kingdom, "both soul and body".
    Them that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him and that will be to complete His promise that the "creature itself shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption unto the glorious liberties of the children of God, (the flesh shall be delivered also and the whole man will be Glorified and take its flight to be with the Father. amen,
     
  12. Tom Butler

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    Is there a case to be made that the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are the same?

    If one doesn't filter the definition through dispensational theology, would it make a difference?
     
  13. Brother Bob

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    To be total honest Tom;
    I personally think they are the same and always have. I mean its only Matt that it is called the Kingdom of Heaven and the other 3 Gospels its called the Kingdom of God but still the same Jesus. Maybe there is a reason for calling it the KoH in Matt and KoG in the rest of the Bible but I really don't know what it is for Jesus was speaking of drawing everyone into the New and Living way, including Israel.
     
  14. Ransom

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    Maybe there is a reason for calling it the KoH in Matt and KoG in the rest of the Bible but I really don't know what it is

    It is generally believed that since Matthew was writing primarily to a Jewish audience, who avoided using the name of God (as Jews still do today), he called it the "kingdom of heaven." It's a euphemism, used out of deference.
     
  15. J. Jump

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    That is the case. They are talking about the same thing. It's just different terminology of the same message.

    Everything that God created is His kingdom, however the Bible most often is speaking about a particular part of His kingdom and that is earth. And Matthew is more specific in that he is speaking of the the rulership of earth that happens in the heavens, where Satan and his fallen angels are currently ruling from.

    It is translated as kingdom of heaven, but it literally should read kingdom of the heavens as it is also plural and it is always following the definite article. Matthew is speaking of the kingdom of the heavens.

    Again there is manuscript evidence that John used the kingdom of the heavens in the third chapter of the gospel account he wrote.
     
  16. LeBuick

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    But Christ is not currently ruling on the earth. We are looking for him to come and reign. How does that tie in?
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Inwardly we are "born again" and have been cleaned up and without spot or blemish. It is the outward man who is waiting on the change and that is why Jesus said "my kingdom cometh not by observation but is within you. Not going to be but already is.
    Also, he that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of God and he shall go no more out.


    1 Corinthians, chapter 4
    "6": And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.

    "7": For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

    "8": Now ye are full, now ye are rich, ye have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God ye did reign, that we also might reign with you.

    If we get into the end of time and God ruling upon this earth we are going to differ greatly. I would perfer we didn't go there for I believe it will be a quick work He will do when He comes and I believe He has already set up His Kingdom within His children.

    I believe He is already "King of Kings and Lord of Lords and is sitting on His Throne forever.

    Revelation, chapter 1
    1: The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
    2: Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
    3: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
    4: John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
    5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
    6: And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen
     
    #17 Brother Bob, Aug 25, 2006
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  18. skypair

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    Bob,

    So this study of the parables of KoH would be pretty much a waste for you? As, it would seem, is 1Cor 15:24 being the last rapture and delivery of Christ's kingdom to His Father.

    Well, I certainly don't want to waste your time.

    skypair
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Seems to me when death is destroyed that would be the end don't you think? When all enemies hath been put down (Satan certainly is an enemy), also God will be all in all. Sorry you feel you are wasting my time. You don't think this will be the end?

    1 Corinthians, chapter 15
    23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
    24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
    25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
    26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
    27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
    28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
     
    #19 Brother Bob, Aug 26, 2006
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  20. skypair

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    Bob,

    Don't think so Bob. He's sitting with His Father on His Father's throne (Rev 3:21).

    Next stop is His own throne in His own kingdom -- the Millenial Kingdom.

    But I suppose to those who don't discern the distinction between KoH and KoG, yours is the normative opinion, right?

    skypair
     

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