KJV Leaves Out Jesus

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Rippon, Jun 20, 2011.

  1. Rippon

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    So much distortion of the modern versions has been exhibited on the BB lately,especially from some new members. I thought I would play their little game for awhile.

    Look at all the times the KJV has left out the name of Jesus.(And this isn't a comprehensive list!) I will compare the KJV with the NIV.

    Luke 20:20,Acts 3;16,Acts 13:24 : KJV : his NIV : Jesus

    Matt. 17:24,Matt. 20:29,Luke 10:38 KJV : they NIV : Jesus and his disciples

    Acts 18:25 : KJV : the Lord NIV : Jesus

    Mark 16:19,2 Thess. 2:8 KJV : Lord NIV : Spirit of Jesus

    Acts 13:38,Heb. 3:3 KJV : this man NIV : Jesus

    Mark 3:20,Mark 7:19,John 10:40 KJV [nothing] NIV : Jesus

    Ro. 1:4 KJV : [nothing] NIV : Jesus Christ our Lord

    Jude 1:25 : KJV : [nothing] NIV : Jesus Christ our Lord
     
  2. Crabtownboy

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    You better duck and hide. The KJ only police are gonna come after you. :laugh:
     
  3. Jim1999

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    You failed to mention that "his" et al are not even capitalized!!!!! My good gracious!

    Just because some love to play in the mud, doesn't mean everyone should. I thought you were better than that.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  4. Mexdeaf

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    KJVO as a doctrine isn't mud- it's quicksand.
     
  5. Logos1560

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    At Matthew 9:10, Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's, Great, Whittingham's, Geneva, and Bishops' Bibles all have "Jesus" while the KJV has "him." At Matthew 26:28, Mark 2:14, and Luke 9:55, the earlier English Bibles have "Jesus" where the KJV has "he." The KJV has "he raised" at John 12:1 where Tyndale's and Matthew's have "Jesus had raised" and Coverdale's along with Whittingham's has "Jesus raised." At John 12:33, Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's, and Whittingham's have "Jesus" while the KJV has "he." Again the KJV has "he" at John 19:41 while Tyndale's, Coverdale's, Matthew's, Whittingham's, and Geneva Bibles have "Jesus."
     
  6. Rippon

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    And there you have conclusive evidence the KJV team was not in favor of retaining "Jesus" in their text.
     
  7. Jim1999

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    To whom does the "he" refer? Any fool would choose Jesus in the context of the text. The KJV is not denying Jesus!

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  8. Rippon

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    Jim,I'm playing their game for awhile. Didn't you notice that in my OP?

    KJO folks continually harp on how the modern versions deny the Deity of Christ or at best water-down vital doctrines etc. I'm playing them at their own game.

    Have you ever seen their charts?
     
  9. Jaocb77

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    Well then let's look at the facts.

    LORD JESUS CHRIST

    Removed 24 times in the NIV
    Removed 21 times in the NASV
    Removed 21 times in the RSV
    Removed 22 times in the NRSV
    Removed 20 times in the NCV
    Removed 15 times in the NLT

    JESUS

    Removed 64 times in the NASV
    Removed 2 times in the NJKV
    Removed 53 times in the RSV

    Charts are intimidating, ain't they!
     
  10. Jaocb77

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    Yep, some modern versions do put Christ's deity in question. You have admitted seeing the charts...:smilewinkgrin:
     
  11. Rippon

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    So,you don't even want to address the OP.
     
  12. David Lamb

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    They can be intimidating I suppose, though I don't feel fear when looking at a chart. This particular chart can also be frustrating and misleading.

    Frustrating, in that you assert the name "Jesus" is "Removed 2 times in the NJKV." I tried to find the 2 times, but as the name "Jesus" occurs almost a thousand times in the bible, it would have taken a long time.

    Misleading, in that it suggests that the NKJV deliberately removed the name in two places. In fact, the NKJV includes the name Jesus 941 times, and the KJV 942 times. So if there are two places where the NKJV does not use it where the KJV does, then there must be one place where the NKJV says "Jesus" and the KJV does not.

    The chart also pays no attention to context. If I said something such as: "He posted 6 messages on the BB today", then without hearing what went before or followed those words, no one would know who I meant by "he". Someone might rightly say, "You've left the person's name out!" So I could say instead, "Jacob77 posted 6 messages on the BB today". But I might say, "Weren't you listening to what I said before? I said that if he kept posting at the present rate, it would not be too long before Jacob77 is in the 1,000 Posts Club".

    It's similar with your contention about the name "Jesus". Now, because I don't know where the two places are where you affirm that the NKJV "leaves out" the name "Jesus", I cannot look them up to see what the context is.

    However, it seems strange to me that if the NKJV translators were so intent on casting doubt on the person and work of the Saviour, they should still have His name, which is so full of meaning, 941 times in their translation.

    What are the two verses where the NKJV supposedly leaves out "Jesus"?
     
  13. Logos1560

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    Such KJV-only charts are actually misleading and even deceptive since they do not indicate whether the words are in the original language texts are not. The preserved Scriptures in the original languages are the standard for trying or evaluating translations. One translation is not the standard for trying or evaluating other translations. These charts also likely ignore the fact that sometimes the word "Jesus" was added in italics when it was not actually in the original language texts.

    In addition, you are unaware or ignore the fact that there are English translations that have the name "Jesus" and the full title "Lord Jesus Christ" more times than the KJV does. If you want to use English translations as the standard, these other English translations would outshine the KJV according to these type charts. These facts refute your misleading claims and charts.

    KJV-only advocates list the old Syriac Peshitta on their pure stream or good line of Bibles. There are at least two English translations of that Syraic Peshitta [1851 English translation of the Syriac Peshitta's New Testament by James Murdock and the 1933 English translation of the entire Syriac Peshitta by George Lamsa]

    In the gospel of Matthew alone, Murdock's and the Lamsa Bible based on the Peshitta have the name "Jesus" several times where the KJV has "he" (8:23, 8:24, 8:28, 9:36, 11:20, 12:9, 14:18, 14:29, 15:3, 15:26, 21:23, 22:20). After the word "redeemed" at Revelation 14:4, Murdock's and the Lamsa Bible along with the Majority Text have "by Jesus," which the KJV does not include. Charles Wiese’s translation of Revelation from the Byzantine text has “by Jesus” at Revelation 14:4 (p. 34).

    Lamsa's English translation of the Peshitta has the full title "Lord Jesus Christ" several times where the KJV does not. Some examples are Acts 1:1, 3:6, 5:42, 8:12, 14:10, 19:5, 21:13, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14, Ephesians 1:15, Philippians 2:19, Colossians 3:17, 1 Thessalonians 2:15, and 1 Peter 1:13.

    Although not in the KJV, the phrase "the name of the Lord Jesus" is found in Wycliffe's, Coverdale's Duoglott, Great Bible, and Douay-Rheims at Acts 18:4.

    According to a consistent application of KJV-only assertions, do English translations of the Peshitta honor the Lord Jesus Christ more than the KJV does.
     
  14. Logos1560

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    Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Rom. 9:5

    According to a consistent application of your own claims, are you saying that the KJV puts Christ's deity in question at Titus 2:13 and 2 Peter 1:1 where other translations present the deity of Christ more clearly.

    Several early English Bibles and many modern translations clearly, precisely, and accurately identify Jesus Christ as "our God and Saviour" at 2 Peter 1:1. William Tyndale in 1534 and John Rogers in 1537 translated the last part of this verse as "righteousness that cometh of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ." The Great, Whittingham's, Geneva, Bishops', Haak’s 1657 English translation of the Dutch Bible, Wesley's, 1842 Baptist or Bernard's, NKJV, Majority Text Interlinear, and many other translations render it "righteousness of our God and Saviour [or Savior] Jesus Christ."

    The NKJV, the MKJV, and several other translations read "our great God and Savior Jesus Christ" at Titus 2:13.

    At Romans 9:5, the early English Bibles and many other translations translate the verse clearly to indicate that Christ is "God over all."

    At John 8:58, Wesley’s N. T., the 1971 KJII, 1973 NASB, NKJV, MKJV, GLT, and Wuest's translation capitalize "I AM" to make sure the reader knows that Christ was claiming here to be God. Do these translations more clearly indicate a connection between this verse and Exodus 3:14 than does the KJV?
     
  15. franklinmonroe

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    Obviously, the two places that it should be left out: Acts 7:45 & Hebrews 4:8. This is where the NKJV translates iesous (Strong's #2424) as "Joshua", which is entirely proper given the context.

    Actually, there was no reason to think that the chart presented is in any way accurate (no source is cited, nor credentials of a compilier given). As you discovered David, without a list of referrences it nearly impossible to confirm. But I can prove the chart is in error: the NKJV actuallly leaves out at least one more "Jesus" (a third, but remember the chart claimed only 2). Look at Mark 2:15 --
    And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. (KJV)

    Now it happened, as He was dining in Levi's house, that many tax collectors and sinners also sat together with Jesus and His disciples; for there were many, and they followed Him. (NKJV)
    Why does the NKJV have "He" instead of "Jesus"? Because the NKJV actually followed the TR: there is no iesous in the first part of the verse (there is one occurrence later). The actual word in the TR is autos (Strong's #826) which is a pronoun meaning he, him, etc. depending upon the context. Facts are intimidating, ain't they!
     
    #15 franklinmonroe, Jun 21, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 21, 2011
  16. David Lamb

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    Thanks for that, Frankinmonroe!
     
  17. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    That would be a literal word for word translation. We know that this is a requirement for translations, except in those cases where the KJV does not translate word for word.
     
  18. revmwc

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    Jesus in the Greek is the same as Josuha in the Hebrew. The N.T. Greek gave Christ name as Jesus had the N.T. been written in Hebrew His name would have been Josuha.
     
  19. jbh28

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    Well, take a look at these "intimidating" charts!

    NASB: Jesus KJV: He....36 times
    NASB: Jesus KJV:him...16 times
    NASB: Jesus KJV: his...1 time
    NASB: Spirit of Jesus KJV: Spirit...1 time
    NASB: Christ Jesus KJV: Christ 5 times
    NASB: Jesus KJV this.....1 time
    NASB: Jesus Christ our Lord KJV {OMIT} 2 times
    NASB: Jesus KJV {OMIT} 2 times

    That's a total of 64 times the KJV removed the word Jesus

    Now, taking that with your total of 64, and it looks like we break even doesn't it.

    NASB "Jesus" KJV "He"
    Matt 5:1, Matt 8:24, Matt 9:1,
    Matt 10:1, Matt 12:48, Matt 13:11,
    Matt 13:24, Matt 13:52, Matt 15:10,
    Matt 15:39, Matt 22:34, Matt 24:34,
    Matt 26:20, Matt 26:45, Mark 1:35,
    Mark 2:27, Mark 4:38, Mark 6:1,
    Mark 6:45, Mark 7:24, Mark 9:1,
    Luke 4:42, Luke 5:16, Luke 5:34,
    Luke 6:17, Luke 7:15, Luke 8:22,
    Luke 11:1, Luke 11:27, Luke 18:35,
    Luke 19:11, Luke 19:40, Luke 19:45,
    Luke 20:3, Luke 20:3, Luke 20:17,
    Luke 22:8

    NASB Jesus KJV him
    Matt 9:10(2nd), Matt 12:10, Matt 12:22,
    Matt 17:14, Matt 19:3, Matt 20:20,
    Matt 22:23, Matt 26:16, Mark 1:30,
    Mark 1:40, Mark 8:22, Mark 10:2,
    Mark 10:35, Mark 12:18, Luke 8:24,

    KJV on left, NASB on right
    John 4:40 him Jesus
    Acts 3:16 his Jesus
    Acts 10:48 the Lord Jesus Christ
    Acts 18:25 the Lord Jesus
    Acts 16:7 Spirit Spirit of Jesus
    Acts 24:24, Romans 8:34, Gal 5:24,
    Eph 3:6, Col 4:12 Christ Christ Jesus
    Rom 8:11 Christ Christ Jesus
    Acts 9:20 Christ Jesus
    Acts 9:22 this Jesus
    Heb 7:24 this man Jesus
    Romans 1:4, Jude 1:25 [not present] Jesus Christ our Lord
    Matt 16:1, John 19:17 [not present] Jesus
    NASB Jesus KJV this man...1 time

    source: http://www.kjv-only.com/jesusnew2.html
     
    #19 jbh28, Jun 22, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2011
  20. sag38

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    Where are the answers from our old and new resident KJVO advocates? You are taking a thrashing in this thread right now. By the way, it's not the KJV that's being thrashed but the only cult. I'd be interested to see their rebuttals.
     

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