KJVO Article

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by DeclareHim, Jun 11, 2004.

  1. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
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    "Problems with the New Bible Version Translations"

    "Unfortunately, most of the English translations made in the 20th Century are derived from a minority of inferior manuscripts which delete or change words and verses, and even omit a few passages of Scripture, violating Revelation 22:18-19. These problems can be traced to two liberal textual critics of the Bible, Westcott and Hort, who made a new Greek text of the New Testament in the 1880's. Rejecting the accepted Majority family of Greek text manuscripts, which had been used for centuries, Westcott and Hort assembled various inferior, less credible manuscripts to produce a new Greek text that had not previously existed."

    It goes on.

    "Several new translations were made from the Westcott-Hort text over the years, but through the first half of the 20th century believers held fast to the trustworthy Authorized King James Version. By the 1960's, however, many people had begun to use new versions based on the Westcott-Hort text (Nestles/Aland). However, the Authorized Version (KJV) continues to be the most accurate version because it is translated from the Majority Text family of manuscripts."

    Bible Doctrines For Today "A Beka Book" Copyright 1996
     
  2. DeclareHim

    DeclareHim
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    A couple of KJVO people I know use this same idea the "inferiority of the Westcott-Hort text". How do I argue this point if they bring it up.
     
  3. DeclareHim

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    I left out some sorry "Today, the majority of versions in use, including the New American Standard Version and New International Version, are based upon revisions of the Westcott-Hort text (Nestles/Aland)." Same copyright.
     
  4. Ed Edwards

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    DeclareHim's lead-in post: // ... Westcott and Hort assembled
    various inferior, less credible manuscripts to produce
    a new Greek text that had not previously existed.//

    While this is frequently said by KJVO-ists,
    it is also true of the 48 translators of the
    KJV whose 1611 edition contained their translation.
    This assembly was not carefully documented and
    we are not real sure we have the same
    exact sources they used.

    The other KJV editions were NOT made by skilled translators,
    but probably by spelling editors.

    additional KJVO double standards are documented at:

    click here --&gt; Ed's Catalogue of KJVO Doubles &lt;-- click here

    [​IMG]
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Beka Books is owned in toto by the same Horton Family that owns Pensacola Christian College and the Campus Church. They are rabidly KJVonly and hence what they publish will be so tainted.

    They have the right to believe and teach their view on the Greek texts and we can't fault that. Just don't agree with their slander of Greek texts that they don't "like".
     
  6. Craigbythesea

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    DeclareHim,

    All translations of the New Testament are based either on a single Greek text, or textual information from more than one Greek text. The translators of the King James Version primarily used the third edition of Robert Estienne’s text of 1550. Robert Estienne’s Greek text was mostly compiled from the few Greek texts that were available to him, none of which were 100% complete. Therefore, he had to translate some words from the Latin Vulgate into Greek to have a complete Greek text of the New Testament.

    Since 1550, more than 5,000 additional Greek manuscripts of all or parts of the New Testament have been found, mostly in the 19th and 20th centuries. Ever since 1550, scholars have been studying the Greek manuscripts available to them and compiling them into texts of the Greek New Testament. The text published by Westcott and Hort is one of the many of these, and can be found on the Internet. Many others of these texts have been published and can be found in used book stores by either visiting them personally or using the Internet. Most of them are very expensive and hard to find.

    In the latter part of the 19th century and throughout the 20th century, photocopies of many of the Greek manuscripts became available, and scholars no longer had to travel all over the world to gain access to the information in the manuscripts that are owned by museums and schools all over the planet, and these scholars began to compile Greek texts based on very many Greek manuscripts and found that there were certain traits that were common to many of them, and the manuscripts were classified according to these traits and we now have basically three “families” of manuscripts, the Byzantine Text-Type, the Alexandrian Text-Type, and the Western Text-Type.

    The manuscripts used by Robert Estienne belong to the Byzantine Text-Type. The manuscripts that Westcott and Hort and very many other scholars and compilers of the Greek text believed to be the most accurate belong to the Alexandrian Text-Type.

    Today, scholars not only have photocopies of thousands the Greek manuscripts, they also have computer data bases that include these manuscripts. 90% or more of scholars of New Testament manuscripts believe that the Alexandrian Text-Type or family of manuscripts is the most accurate. Most of the other scholars of New Testament manuscripts believe that the Byzantine Text-Type or family of manuscripts is the most accurate. Very few believe that the Western Text-Type or family of manuscripts is the most accurate.

    Since the KJV New Testament was translated from a text than was compiled from manuscripts belonging to the Byzantine Text-Type, and many 19th and 20th century translations of the New Testament were translated from a text that was compiled mostly from manuscripts belonging to the Alexandrian Text-Type, proponents of KJO often attack the translations that are based primarily on the Alexandrian Text-Type. They do this in several ways, including the following:

    They list the verses that are not usually found in the Alexandrian family of manuscripts and say that the “modern versions” took them out of the Bible. This is a horrible distortion of the truth, and none of those verses are important to understanding the Bible.

    They attack Westcott and Hort personally even though they had virtually nothing to do with any of this. This is slander.

    They call late 19th century and 20th and 21st century translations of the Bible New Age translations implying that they were substantially influenced by the New Age movement and philosophy. This is an absolute lie.

    They claim that the KJV is the preserved Word of God. This claim is not based on any evidence at all (but a mere, very emotional supposition), and there is a mountain of evidence to the contrary.

    Some of the issues here are very complex and it may not be wise for you to argue with your parents or their pastor or others who are KJOists. If you believe, however, that God is leading you to do so, the inaccurate and even false claims of the KJOists are refuted over and over again in threads in this forum, and you can learn for yourself by studying the threads the arguments that are used to refute the claim of KJO.

    There is a very good book that would help you to understand the evidence involved in the Byzantine vs. Alexandrian debate. This book presents a strong case for the Byzantine Text-Type, but at the same time presents an even stronger case for the Alexandrian Text-Type. It was not written for 16-year-olds, but I believe that you could handle it just fine. The name of the book is The Byzantine Text-Type & New Testament Textual Criticism. It was written by Harry A. Sturz and published by Thomas Nelson Publishers, Copyright 1984.

    [ June 12, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Craigbythesea ]
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Brother Craigbythesea -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Very good essay.
    I pray God would give us more good
    men who can write sentences,
    organize sentences into paragaphs
    and make paragrpahs read together into
    a logical essay.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Craigbythesea

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    Thank you, Ed!

    Coming from you such comments mean very much to me. Again, thank you! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Dr. Bob

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    Watch out when Ed speaks well of you, Craig! :eek:

    Remember the warning, "Beware of geeks bringing gifts . . " :rolleyes:
     
  10. DeclareHim

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    Thanks for the informative post. I continue to learn alot. Mostly when I argue with KJVO's they start it, by attacking the MV and I just answer there attack. To the best of my knowledge I have never attacked the KJV (Its a great Bible Translation). I just believe its un-Christ like to attack the MV's. Thanks again for the great reply. [​IMG]
     
  11. Marcia

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    Posted by DeclareHim:
    DeclareHim, see this link where Ripliner's arguments are refuted:
    Articles on Gail Riplinger
     
  12. Ed Edwards

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    Not to worry, Craigbythesea and i are at
    loggerheads at rapture timing wrestling ring.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Marcia

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    Posted by Craig:
    To DeclareHim: As a former New Ager, I can doubly affirm this. There is nothing in the modern versions that support the New Age. The very idea is ridiculous. I use the NASB all the time to refute New Age claims about Christ, his mission, God, etc.

    DeclareHim, I commend you for your desire to study and refute invalid attacks on the modern versions of the Bible. Keep it up! [​IMG]
     
  14. DeclareHim

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    Plan on it ;)
     
  15. robycop3

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    Actually, the New Age phoneyology draws some of its mantras, buzzwords, & catch phrases from various BVs including the KJV. These include God, Christ, angels, born again, second coming, kingdom of God, and hell. What's perverted is the MEANINGS of these words/phrases.(If I've left out anything, Marcia, please correct me, as I'm "talking" from the top of my head.)

    New Age imitates the Bible somewhat, not the other way around.
     
  16. Marcia

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    You're right - the New Age uses terms from the Bible but has another meaning for them. I used to quote from the Bible when I wrote articles for magazines as an astrologer, and, ironically enough, it was from the King James because that was the only Bible I had then. I never heard them use "born-again" but some Pagans, as sort of a joke, wear t-shirts that said, "Born Again Pagan."

    A Course in Miracles is supposedly the words of Jesus transmitted to the author (who was an atheist psychiatrist) and it talks about the Holy Spirit, Jesus, God, etc. but redefines sin, the HS, etc. This book was big and influenced many New Age writers like Marianne Williamson. I have an article that discusses all this in depth on my site (it's a slight revision of a seminary paper I did for Soteriology). It's about New Age views of sin and salvation. If interested, it's at
    GOD IN THE MIRROR: EVIL, SIN, AND SALVATION

    New Agers are big on angels. They redefine Christ as one who gained Christ consciousness and/or as "a Christ" and say all of us can become "christs." Matthew Fox, an Episcopal priest, teaches this in The Coming of the Cosmic Christ. BTW, Fox's books are sold on christianbook.com, as are many New Age books and authors. :(
     
  17. DeclareHim

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    interesting read. thx for the other links as well.
     
  18. Marcia

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    Wow, someone read my links! Thanks, DeclareHim! [​IMG]
     
  19. DeclareHim

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    No Problem. [​IMG] Interesting Website also.
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Amen, Sibling DeclareHIm!

    Here is part of that good site:
    click here --&gt; http://cana.userworld.com/cana_background.html &lt;-- click here
     

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