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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bob Krajcik, May 9, 2005.
if the poll was at the top u might get more votes. i have no idea why it's on the bottom
I've hadn't noticed that. I don't know why it is at the bottom?
Perhaps there are not many votes because some have discovered they would have to refute the Scriptures to maintain their position? No- that wouldn't happen would it?
Perhaps the questions for the poll are not easy to understand, so when voters go to cast their ballet, they just don't vote?
To assist in voting, read these verses then go to the poll and vote
2 Thessalonians 2:13 (KJV) But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ephesians 1:4 (KJV) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Neither of these texts can in all honesty be used to show "Predestination", if that is what you are trying to do.
For your first example, it is never advisable to use any Scripture for doctrinal purposes, where the reading of the verse is not certain. Though I too use the KJV/NKJV as my main English Versions, I nevertheless do use the Greek text.
There are two readings here, both of about equal value in textual evidence.
The reading of the KJV which is "ap' arches" (from the beginning). The alternative reading is, "aparchen" (first-fruits), which is used for the earliest converts. This reading is older than the one in the KJV, but does not mean that it is the right one. However, where doubt remains at to the original reading, it is unwise to use it for doctrinal purposes.
The issue with your second example is not textual, but grammatical.
"according as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world; for us to be holy and blameless before Him in love"
God has "chosen" us in Him, "in order than" (hina)we might be holy and blameless before Him in love". The purpose here is seen by the use of "hina", "with a view to". God has determined before that those who are chosen in Him, should live before Him in holiness and be without any blame. I don't see anywhere in this verse, where the end result referred to through the "choosing", is to do with a predetermined salvation. Rather, it that those who are "chosen" would live godly lives in Him. there can be no real objection to this from the context or the grammar.
How many times do I have to "invite Jesus" in order to know that I am saved?
One. To know it you will see fruit:
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Well, I don’t suppose you intended to, but regardless of the sundry readings and translations, I think you have added support to what I have been saying. Thanks
I think those passages are abundantly clear
Firstfruits is sometimes used to describe begotten ones, the chosen, showing them to have repentance and faith, while not yet receiving the redemption of the body. Repentance and faith is an evidence of our election, and apart from repentance and faith no one shall be saved. But I really don’t get concerned about variant readings myself.
If those passages that are contested by some persons are not to be used, we would not have much Scripture left for doctrine. I’ll just go ahead and use what I have been and continue to pray for any that have not yet received Christ. The truth of the gospel is made clear in the multitude of translations and readings, and any variants in readings are no hindrance to our great salvation. My understanding, while the word is corruptible, the seed we are born by is incorruptible. We are born again by the Holy Spirit, and not corruptible words.
About that second point regarding the grammar. I’ll have to consider that a while. I have always understood those chosen to live holy lives were the same ones chosen to salvation. I understand there are some that claim those forever separated from God are redeemed and so have their sins taken care of already. Do you suppose it is the ones that will for ever be separated from God are the ones chosen to live holy lives in Christ?
There might be some around that are still wondering if they have done all the different things they think they have to do to make themselves saved. Rather than just wondering how many times they have to say something, they very well might be worried if they have done all the doing they imagine is needed to make themselves saved, and if they have done it properly.
Look to Jesus Christ. He is desired by those born anew, that were chosen from before the foundation of the earth.
To that not born again, there is nothing they see in Jesus that is to be desired, but to the living ones, He is precious.
billwald, I notice you are an old timer on the BB also, having signed on June 2000.
Does "election", by definition have to mean each individual person chosen?
Or can election mean the establishment of the means, and whoever accepts the means is elected?
Paul counted himself as an elected person- not just a result of freewill + elected means. Read Acts 9:15, 22:10, 14, and Galatians 1:15.
I agree with what whetstone has said. In support of the notion that election is here referring to an election of individuals, I offer this short quote. This shows a reason for saying it is individuals that are the object of election, plus gives addtional support for what I have been saying.
Whether by individual choice of God, as in, "I choose you".
By means established by God, "I give you My only begotten son, and whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life"
Both are EQUALLY EFFECTIVE in God's redemption of man.
And Yes, both require the free will of humans to be effective, because in both scenarios, man makes the ultimate decision regarding his salvation.
The Holy Scriptures from the first words in the book of Genesis, In the beginning God created to the last words in the book of Revelation, The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ [be] with you all. Amen, are a testimony to the Sovereignty of God. By Sovereignty is meant, not simply the omnipotence of God, but the exercise of that omnipotence in the governing of all things. Similarly, from the shedding of blood to provide a covering for the nakedness of Adam and Eve to the birth of Jesus Christ - God the Son, His death and resurrection, and finally to the declaration of His return in power and glory, Scripture clearly declares the Sovereignty of God in salvation. God not only takes the initiative in salvation but completes that good work.
Philippians 1:6, KJV
6. Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
Wes, Wes, Wes, Wrong again!
Salvation, the blessing of grace, is that work of the Triune God by which He eternally redeems and reconciles to Himself those chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:4], freeing them from bondage to sin and His holy wrath. That salvation is purchased by the blood of the Incarnate Son [Romans 5: 9; Hebrews 9: 14; 1 Peter 1: 18; 1 John 1: 7; Revelation 1: 5; Revelation 7: 14], the blood of the everlasting covenant [Matthew 26: 28; Hebrews 13: 20], and is made effective in the life of the elect through regeneration by the Holy Spirit and union with Jesus Christ. Salvation from beginning to end is entirely by the Sovereign Grace of the Triune God. During his earthly ministry Jesus Christ expressed this truth by the following simple statement:
John 10:26-29, KJV
26. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
Paul counted himself as an elected person- not just a result of freewill + elected means. Read Acts 9:15, 22:10, 14, and Galatians 1:15. </font>[/QUOTE]Paul was most definitely "Elected", as were all the Apostles. But the general population of the eastern mediterranian region were not elected.
What do you imagine? Were the Thessalonian Christians that Paul wrote to all apostles?
1 Thessalonians 1:4 (KJV) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.