LaHaye distorts Scripture on logo of Pre-Trib Research Center

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Paul33, Feb 22, 2005.

  1. Paul33

    Paul33
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    LaHaye, in order to proof his case of a pre-trib rapture, even distorts Scripture on the logo of the Pretrib Research Center that he founded.

    Quoting from the NASB, he has this phrase:
    "Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."

    What do you think is missing?

    You got it, the phrase that makes the verse a reference to the post-trib rapture!

    The actual verse from the NASB.

    "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus;" (NASB)
     
  2. Paul33

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    Titus 2:13.

    Corrected phrase from logo:

    "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ."
     
  3. Ed Edwards

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    Titus 2:13 (KJV1769+Strong's numbers):

    Tit 2:13 Looking for4327 that blessed3107 hope,1680
    and2532 [/n]
    the3588 glorious1391 appearing2015 of the3588
    great3173 God2316 and2532 our2257 Savior4990
    Jesus2424 Christ;5547

    Let us talk about the first KAI:

    kai
    kahee
    Apparently a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so, then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words: - and, also, both, but, even, for, if, indeed, likewise, moreover, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yea, yet.


    Let us talk modern talk about the copulative KAI.

    1) combining two different sets
    2) combining a set with it's subset
    3) combining two overlaping sets
    4) two equal sets

    I say as a pretrib rapture believer that #1 is
    the type KAI this is. Two differnet sets of events:

    1) the blessed hope
    2) the glorious appearing

    As a postie you MUST choose another meaning of Kai.
     
  4. Glory2God

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    LaHaye also has the Pope going up in the rapture in the Left Behind series. When in Rome..... [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  5. OldRegular

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    The KJV, 1767 version is as follows:

    Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    So what hasn't LeHaye distorted. He has 11 [I think] volumes of distortion!
    :D
     
  6. Paul33

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    Ed,

    I like the NIV rendition!

    "while we wait for the blessed hope - the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ"

    With only one article in the Greek, literally:

    "While we wait for the blessed hope and glorious appearing"

    This is one event!

    Because it is one event, LaHaye removes the word "glorious" to remove the clear reference to the post-trib rapture and second coming of Christ.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

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    The NIV is post-trib and the KJV1769
    is pretrib :confused:
     
  8. Primitive Baptist

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    Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. -2 Thess. 2:1, 2

    The Christians at Thessalonica had been falsely led to believe that the day of Christ had come, that it was actually present. However, Paul corrects this misunderstanding and instructs them of things which must come to pass BEFORE "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" and "our gathering together unto him."

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. -2 Thess. 2:2, 3

    The man of sin, according to Paul, must FIRST be revealed. Those who believe in the Pretribulation "Rapture" of the saints teach a doctrine that Paul did not teach, for they claim that the church being gathered unto Christ is a prerequisite for the man of sin to be revealed. Paul taught the exact opposite.

    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: -2 Thess. 2:8

    What will Christ do when He comes? Destroy the man of sin! What else will Christ do when He comes? Gather His saints, both living and death (1 Thess. 4:16, 17). He will also "deliver up the kingdom (1 Cor. 15), and destroy the kosmos (2 Pet. 3).
     
  9. Ed Edwards

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    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
     
  10. brumleyj

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    titus 2:3 is not split coming of Christ. that scripture telling us there is ONE event of second coming of Christ. also telling us we are looking foward blessed hope for regin with Christ forever.

    niv, kjv, other version are posttrib doctrine. there is no difference.

    brumleyj
    amem :D
     
  11. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Ed,

    "Falling away" is not a reference to the rapture, it is a reference to the rebellion that occurs."

    NIV "that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed."

    Also, Paul in speaking to the Thessalonian church tells this church that relief from persecution for them and the apostle will come when Christ appears in blazing fire with his powerful angels to punish the wicked and be glorified in his people. This is most certainly a reference to the second coming of Christ at the end of the tribulation, thus making a pretrib rapture an impossibility! 2 Thess. 1:6-10.
     
  12. Paul33

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    Ed,

    You believe the rapture is imminent, meaning nothing else has to occur before it takes place.

    Do you believe the Apostle Paul believed it was imminent at the time he penned his letters?
     
  13. El_Guero

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    Of course, Paul believed it was imminent ... As should the modern Church.
     
  14. Paul33

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    Hey, El Geuro,

    If Paul believed it was imminent, how do you explain the fact that the rapture could not have happened at any moment in Paul's day because Peter had yet to be crucified in old age as prophesied by Jesus! (John 21:18).

    In other words, before the rapture could take place, Peter had to be crucified in old age. Therefore, in Paul's day, the rapture could not have been imminent, and it is absurd to think that Paul thought it was!
     
  15. Ed Edwards

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    Amen Brother El_Guero - Preach it! [​IMG]

    The pre-tribulation rapture has always been imminent. The purpose of the Rapture Doctrine is to call us to serve God better. As soon as the rapture is not imminent, then that purpose is not served.

    Consider "a priori" odds. That is, before the first: for a coin toss it is 50% change of heads and 50% change of tails. I've flipped the coin. It was a head. Now we considered the posteriori. In this case the posteriori odds are 100% heads and 000% tails. In 668AD the a priori odds of Jesus coming that year was high - the coming of Jesus to get His own before the tribulation was high. in 689 the odds that Jesus would come in 688 were posteriori and zero%.

    Just because Jesus doesn't come in a particular time frame does NOT make His coming less imminent. Maranatha - even so, Lord Jesus, come soon! Amen.
     
  16. Ed Edwards

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    Don't have to explain it. Take it up with Jesus if you don't like it. God is in charge of fulfilling Bible Prophecy, we dont't need to be in charge of fulfilling Bible Prophecy unless God hires us to do that.
     
  17. Paul33

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    Ed,

    What a nonsensical reply.

    You take it up with Jesus! You are the one in disagreement with Him, not me!

    The disciples of Christ, as the first apostles of the church, would never have believed that the rapture was imminent, because they would have remembered his prophecy concerning Peter, as well as the command of Christ to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth.

    Since they were living at the time of Paul's letters, neither could Paul have believed in an imminent rapture. Therefore the texts you would site to prove an imminent rapture would not have been understood in that way by Paul or the other apostles.

    Since I agree with what Jesus said, and therefore do not believe in an imminent rapture, I'm not the one with the problem.

    Today, there are still events that must come to pass before God raptures his people from this earth. 2 Thess. 2 tells us what some of them are.
     
  18. Ed Edwards

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    LEt me see, 70-33 = 37,
    2005-33 = 1972, 37/1972 = 1.9%.
    You are spinning your wheels about 1.9%
    of the 1972 years that the coming of Jesus
    to get His own has been imminent.
    The pretribulation rapture will be imminent
    as long as the Lord tarries.


    Paul33: "Today, there are still events that must come to pass before God raptures his people from this earth. 2 Thess. 2 tells us what some of them are."

    Don't think so. Try reading 2 Thess 2 right.
    ---------------
    The Thessalonians were familiar with
    this saying of Jesus which we now find
    recorded in Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

    But he that shall endure unto
    the end, the same shall be saved.


    But some said of their friend "He got
    sick and died before Jesus came to
    get him, poor soul."

    Paul addresses this problem in
    a clearly pretribulation rapture passage
    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11,
    one of the most comforting passages in the
    Bible.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 5:11 (nKJV):

    13 But I do not want you to be ignorant,
    brethren, concerning those who have fallen
    asleep, lest you sorrow as others who
    have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and
    rose again, even so God will bring with Him
    those who sleep in Jesus.
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord,
    that we who are alive and remain until
    the coming of the Lord will by no means
    precede those who are asleep.
    16 For the Lord Himself will descend
    from heaven with a shout, with the voice
    of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
    And the dead in Christ will rise first.
    17 Then we who are alive and remain
    shall be caught up (raptured)
    together with them in the clouds to meet
    the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
    always be with the Lord
    .
    18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
    5:1 But concerning the times and the seasons,
    brethren, you have no need that I should
    write to you.
    2 For you yourselves know perfectly that
    the day of the Lord so comes as a thief
    in the night.
    3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!"
    then sudden destruction comes upon them,
    as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
    And they shall not escape.
    4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness,
    so that this Day should overtake
    you as a thief.
    5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day.
    We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do,
    but let us watch and be sober.
    7 For those who sleep, sleep at night,
    and those who get drunk are drunk at night.
    8 But let us who are of the day be sober,
    putting on the breastplate of faith and love,
    and as a helmet the hope of salvation.
    9 For God did not appoint us to wrath,
    but to obtain salvation through our
    Lord Jesus Christ,
    10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep,
    we should live together with Him
    .
    11 Therefore comfort each other and edify
    one another
    , just as you also are doing.

    Later the Thessalonians wondered if they
    had missed the rapture. Paul corrects this
    in a second letter:

    2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 (nKJV):

    1 Now, brethren, concerning
    the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ
    and our gathering together to Him,
    we ask you
    ,
    2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled,
    either by spirit or by word or by letter,
    as if from us, as though the day of Christ
    had come
    .
    3 Let no one deceive you by any means;
    for that Day will not come unless
    the falling away comes first,
    and the man of sin
    is revealed, the son of perdition,

    The falling away that comes first
    is the Rapture!
    Then the man of sin is revealed, the
    antichrist. Then the Tribulation period
    begins.

    There is nothing HAS TO HAPPEN before
    the rapture.
    Here are some things that could happen
    before the rapture but they do NOT
    have to happen.

    1) The destruction of Damascus (Isaiah 17)
    2) the Ezekiel 38 Gog/Magog invastion
    (the Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20:8
    Gog/Magog invasion will be after the
    Tribulation period)
    3) the building of a Temple in Jerusalem
    on Mount Zion north of and alongside
    the Dome of the Rock.

    But again, these things do not HAVE
    TO HAPPEN before the rapture, they may
    happen after the rapture; they could happen
    before the rapture. They do not HAVE TO
    HAPPEN before the imminent pretribulation
    rapture.
    -------------------------
     
  19. Paul33

    Paul33
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    Ed,

    Even Hiebert, a pre-trib dispensationalist commentator admits that "the falling away" is apostasy and not the "rapture" of the church.

    The Greek word is "he apostasia."

    Ed, you've done a good job of showing what extremes pre-tribbers must resort to in an attempt to prove their position.

    Calling "the apostasy" that must come before the man of lawlessness is revealed "the rapture" is quite a stretch.

    The two-people, two program form of dispensationalism with a pre-trib rapture of the church to get the church out of the way requires a distortion of the text that is unending in its creativity (two first resurrections, two last trumpets, etc.).
     
  20. Ed Edwards

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    Thank you for your compliment and your admission of defeat. You have admitted i've bested your position by attacking my successful dilineation of the facts presented by the Scripture. Never have i gotten such a beautiful consession speach so early in my delivery of the Scritpure on the pretribulation rapture/resurrection.

    It is so sweet [​IMG] I present my major argument: Jesus is going to come get His own prior to the Tribulation Day - the pretribulation rapture. I present my minor arguments. I begin to present the scriptural facts support my major contention and my minor contention and viola! - concession. How sweet it is. Amen. Praise the Lord.

    BTW, we note that nothing in the Enlish "first" or "last" limits the concept to one and only one.

    Every Feast of Trumpets in every Synagogue for the last 2,000 years three trumpets have been blows: The first trumpet, the last trumpet, and the great shofar. Please note that if there has been an average of 2,000 participating synagogues that makes for 6 MILLION last trumpets blown. This number is minimal, as the time has been longer and the participating synagogues larger. The last trumpet of the church age (gentile age) is at the end of -- guess it? the church age. The last trumpet of the Tribulation Day is at the end of the Tribulation Day.

    For my deaf friends: The last trumpet of the church age will be the first sound you hear. If that trumpet is loud enough to wake the dead - you will hear it! Anyway, you will get a new body that can hear. What a first sound to hear - the last trumpet of the church age - better than the sounds we hearing folk hear.

    Paul33: "Even Hiebert, a pre-trib dispensationalist commentator admits that "the falling away" is apostasy and not the "rapture" of the church."

    Great! use it next time you are debating with Hiebert. Right now you are debating with Ed Edwards and this type comment doesn't get you any points. I am a priest of the Living God, i don't need no Hiebert as intersessor - i deal direct with God in the name of Jesus, my Lord and Master, Creator and Savior, etc.
     

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