Leadership position

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by SaggyWoman, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman
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    What consists of a woman in a leadership position over a man in church? Give me some practical examples.
     
  2. Dr. Bob

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    Leadership in a church that would be OFF LIMITS to females might include:</font>
    • Preaching to Men</font>
    • Teaching Men</font>
    • Presiding at Business Meeting</font>
    • Serving as an Elder</font>
    • Doing the above on the Mission Field</font>
    Others?
     
  3. SaggyWoman

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    Teaching men in what capacity? Biblically or how to wash teir hands after they change a diaper?
     
  4. Jimmy C

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    Isnt it interesting that the leader of the Conservative takeover/resurgence in the SBC, the late great WA Criswell's wife taught the biggest sunday school class - coed - at FB Dallas.

    I guess the Criswells worked out that the Mrs. was teaching under her husbands authority. In this case I would agree with the Criswells.
     
  5. Terry_Herrington

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    I have not read the book of Criswell in my Bible. Therefore, what he did does not necessarily fall within the bounds of Scripture. If he allowed he wife to teach men, as you suggest, then he was wrong.
     
  6. Terry_Herrington

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    Why does it bother so many people that God has limited the leadership roles in the church. These limits go beyond gender. Just as it is wrong for women to preach or teach men in the church, it is also wrong for unqualified men to preach or to teach.

    We do not have to understand why God has commanded certain things, we simply have to obey them.

    BTW, in the case of women being in authority in the church, it is evident that because woman was deceived in the garden of Eden, they are not given authority over man.

    1 Timothy 2:12-14 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
    (KJV)
     
  7. Artimaeus

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    [​IMG] Understanding is optional, obedience is not.
     
  8. Lorelei

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    The question was NOT whether or not women should hold authority, the question was, how do we define "authority." That is a valid question that needs to be answered. Women can not teach men, but as someone asked already, can a woman "show them how" to do things (like change a diaper) or must we find a man to demonstrate those things to them? What does authority consist of?

    Someone recently brought to my attention the fact that the word used for authority in the passage in 1 Timothy is a different word than is generally used for authority.

    The word more generally used is

    What this means, I don't know, for I don't know greek, but I think it is important to realize that there is something different about what is said in 1 Timothy 2:12.

    I too am studying this out and would like to know, what does authority consist of? Understanding isn't optional, for we can't be obedient if we misunderstand what it means.

    I agree with Dr. Bob's list, I would just like to know does "teaching" only apply to spiritual things, or to church settings? Can a woman ever witness to a man? Wouldn't that be teaching him about Christ? Is there something difinitive we can use to gage the correct interpretation of "authority?" As a woman I really want to know, for I do want to be obedient to the Lord!

    ~Lorelei
     
  9. Mark Osgatharp

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    Lorelei,

    If you will examine the context of both I Corinthians 14 and I Timothy 2, you will find that Paul was giving instructions for conduct in the church. He did not forbid women to give instruction to men in all circumstances; he was talking about teaching when the saints of God were assembled formally for worship.

    That there are women in the Scriptures who prophesied and taught is without question. But the were forbidden to do so in the public assemblies. This responsibility was reserved for men. This is evident from such statements as:

    "Let your women be silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn anything let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for a woman to speak in the church."

    Note that Paul makes a clear distinction between what women do at home and what they do in the church. This distinction is, perhaps, hard for some to understand, because we have become so accustom to thinking of the church as just some sort of casual fellowship gathering of Christians.

    In fact, when a church of the living God is assembled it is the highest, holiest, most authoritative gathering on earth. It is a time where the utmost decorum should be observed. Part of that decorum is that the men are to be in charge and the women are to be silent, to manifest to all the God ordained order of authority within the home.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  10. SaggyWoman

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    So, Mark, is what you are saying , then, that women can "teach" (and I don't mean Sunday School, either) as long as it isn't in the "assembly" of the church, i.e. the worship service?
     
  11. Jailminister

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    Saggy, Women can teach children(boys and girls). Women can witness to men and women. They just can not do in with authority.
     
  12. Hardsheller

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    Tell that to your wife! :eek:
     
  13. Jailminister

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    I have and she obeys.
     
  14. Matt Black

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    Lorelei, you are correct:authentein , translated 'authority'in I Tim 2:12 has sexual connotations and has been found in secular Greek literature of the time to describe the techniques prostitutes used to seduce their clients. Nowhere else in the NT is authentein used; the usual word for 'authority', occurring countless times in the NT, exousia , is not used in I Tim 2. So, the question is, what kind of authority is Paul talking about here? Quite clearly he cannot mean the sort of authority a pastor wields - I don't know about your church but at ours the pastor certainly does not indulge in sexual seduction! So what does Paul mean here?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  15. Dr. Bob

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    Must have been before my time. The auditorium class was taught by Zig Ziglar, then taken over by Tom Landry. They were not gender exclusive.

    Mrs. C and Mary Kay taught classes for women . . although men were certainly allowed in those classes if they so desired. But the church did not set up either lady to teach men "per se".

    But they might have. That, praise God, is the hallmark of independence among baptists! They CAN have the pastor's wife teach if they so desire. I wouldn't. You wouldn't. But they can.
     
  16. Dr. Bob

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    This greek word most commonly meant "dominate" and did have sexual implications about positions of intercourse. But obviously that is not what is being taught here!

    The parallel of "teach" - the most common word for doing just that, teaching! - is the most basic function of the pastor/teacher gift. And "usurp authority" which is to dominate, and have control over men - show a normal useage for the term.

    Women were not to formally teach nor to try to dominate the leadership roles - both of which were for men.
     
  17. SaggyWoman

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    Short of pastoring as in Senior pastor and teaching, as maybe in a Sunday School class, tell me, how do women fare beyond that? How do they usurp aurthority beyond that?
     
  18. Matt Black

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    Sorry,Dr Bob, have to take issue with you there; I believe that authentein is meant to be taken sexually, otherwise its use does not make sense and the passage contradicts other Pauline texts and NT Scriptures generally (see the Charles Stanley thread for examples). Taken in its proper exegetical context, however, authentein , and indeed the whole passage, makes perfect sense:-

    1. Timothy was in charge of the church at Ephesus at that time

    2. Ephesus, we know from Acts 19, was a big centre of the Diana cult.

    3. The church there had been infiltrated to an extent by that cult and also a form of gnosticism that blended to form an 'Eve cult'

    4. Essential tenets of this 'Eve-cult' were as follows:-

    a. Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge first, therefore women were endowed with greater spiritual wisdom than men

    b. This superior spiritual knowledge was passed on through the women teaching and having sex (carnal knowledge/ gnosis )with the men in the church -an essential element of this 'teaching' was a requirement or duress that the men had sex thus - hence authentein .

    5. Paul, in this passage, addresses each point of error:-

    a. Eve was deceived first, not 'enlightened' first, by the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge

    b. Therefore the women had to stop teaching and learn in submission so that their errors could be corrected and stop having sexual authority ( authentein ) over men

    This is why I sincerely believe that BF&M 2000 is in error in using this passage as its proof text on this issue; I submit that their interpretation is incorrect.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     

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