legalism

I have a real hard time thinking that all men are degenerates who have devious and evil thoughs when around a woman or who cannot have a godly thought toward a woman. 8o) I have a MAJOR hard time with that! 8o)

when the woman is half naked mamash believe it !

 

Hello again Abiyah. Thank you for your reply. I am enjoying the discussion.

You asked:
If you already know that for you,
attending movies would not be a good thing, why
does a church or a pastor need to tell you this? 8o)
Does not the Holy Spirit, conscience, or common
sense (whichever you wish to give credit) already
tell you that this is not right for you?
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I do believe that the Holy Spirit will guide believers into all truth (even about movies ) but the pastor of a church is in such a position that he must set guidelines (or standards) to keep order in the church. He must do this because not every believer is in the same place in their christian walk, and some even backslide at times. What would a church (especially a large church) be like if everyone just did their own thing according to how they felt that day?

Now don't get me wrong here. I totally agree with you that, in a perfect world (which praise the Lord, we look forward to!) no kind of rules or standards would be needed. But the flesh is weak, and wars against the Spirit.

My church is pastored by a very wise man. I thank God for him. He, along with the Deacon board, has set standards that anyone in leadership must follow. Now for regular members, or visitors, the only requirements are that they show up with some kind of clothing on. They are gladly welcomed and encouraged to keep attending. I have never seen anyone turned away, and that's how it should be.
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You said:
I would counter what you say, however, by saying that our God's word is enough; it is whole, complete. He really does not need mere humans to improve upon what He has made and perfected. Such added rules are for the unruly; the idea is to be such a follower of our God that all that is needed is His word and not some human's admonition.
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I totally agree that Gods word is enough, whole and complete!

What did Paul say to Timothy concerning the ministry?
2Tim 4:1-5
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Paul tells Timothy that the time will come when people will not endure sound doctrine. He tells Timothy to reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. Keep them in line, on the straight and narrow.

I believe that the standards (or exhortations) that my pastor has established are meant to keep our eyes off of the world and on Christ.

Again, I totally see your point. In a perfect world, we wouldn't need any of the rules and laws that we do, but until Jesus returns, it keeps this old world somewhat in check.

May the Lord bless you Abiyah!

 

Ah, to be already dwelling in that perfect world!!

 

may the day come speedily and soon, amen!

 

I saw this quote today and thought about this thread:

http://www.thebaptistpage.com/

 

What your church does and the standards it sets are its business. But I do question the idea that it is necessary. My pastor does not do it.
And for deacons to do it implies that they are ruling elders, not true deacons. You give only one alternative of everyone doing whatever they feel like that day. In my church people try to discern what God wants them to do that day.

Karen

 

Hi Karen.

I am sorry if I gave the impression that the members of my church don't seek Gods will in their daily lives. They do. But....they are human too, and have a bad day on occasion.

It sounds as though you have found the perfect church though. Congratulations.

 

Not that I would dare attempt an answer on Bob's behalf (and risking the fact that I have not read every post on both pages so far...), but I am guessing that Bob agrees that we must keep God's commandments but that we are not to be bound by a set of rules that another human draws up (whether Bible sounding or not) in order to be considered in step with the Master.

Christian Liberty is a term often without a meaningful definition in our churches.

We can agree that any alcohol consumption can lead to danger but we can not point to a clear biblical teaching that commands us to abstain from any and all drinking. My understanding of Christian liberty would allow me to take a drink of wine at a meal. My concern (from me and about me alone) about my flesh, my tendency toward the extreme, and concern for some friends of mine who are alcoholic and would be tempted to stumble as a result of my drinking keeps me from taking the drink. Yet for me to castigate, attempted on biblical grounds. another believer for taking a drink would be a legalistic action and contrary to the Biblical rules for Christian liberty.

We can agree that where gambling (even as slight an action as the purchase of a lottery ticket) is present, crime and decay are also present. But we do not have a clear Biblical admonition against even the purchase of a lottery ticket. I have not gambled since my penny pitching days because I understand my bent toward extremes (I might just win and then be hooked), I have some understanding of where the gambled money goes, and I have some friends who have no self-control around a casino or race track and my witness might cause one of them to stumble. Christian liberty keeps me from castigating my Christian brother or sister soley for buy lotto tickets, placing a $2 bet at Keeneland, or dropping a roll of quarters in a slot in a casino. Legalism would demand that I declare their actions to be sin.

These are just two examples. There are a legion of others.

In essence, in my experience, legalism is defined as those rules that others wish to make for you in order to keep you just a bit less holy, in the eyes of the faith community, than they. It's a power trip and definitely not honoring or glorifying of God.

 

Could the things, like the movies, be written in a church "set of rules" because they are not mentioned in the Bible? Many times these things are only written down to let those interested in joining the church know what that church believes? I see those don'ts as a stand of the church in seperation. I don't need someone telling me that I can't do those things, but I don't read the church covenant every day either. I do read my Bible every day and God has an extemely long list of do's and don'ts. Wasn't it Paul that stated, "I had not known sin, but by the Law". There are many Laws that we still follow.

 

I have been a member at four churches is my adult life- same religion, and spread over a decade. But, the first one it seemed to be very hard for people to accept the same exact standards the pastor wanted them to. The second one- it was like one big pie divided into thirds... saldy, sort of like clique-clubs. YOu had the ones who did everything by the book of what the pastor said would be best, and those who didn't care at all...and some that tried, but didn't get into it too much. The third was so big, I really oculdn't give an honest opinion or observance report. The one I'm in now, the pastor makes it clear that he believes the Bible says this or that about dress, etc... but also has Sunday School (female) teachers that wear pants, whether he's aware I don't know. But, it really is up to a person if they totally yield themselves to pastoral authority. And such as if the pastor teaches long hair on women, etc... God forces no one to obey, but, there is also the issue of, "Is this relly what God wants from me?" If you are in a church, God wants us to be subject to the higher powers aka (pastors). Like, I can't get upset and leave the church in honesty just because there are strict dress codes and the pastor has firm beliefs in modesty and opinions, etc...I don't know where you stand, etc... But, if I had something the pastor wouldn't approve of, but the LORD told me it was okay, we should obey the LORD first. But, on the other hand, usually a pastro won't tell you to do something that will draw you away from Christ, but closer to Him. Anyone can be wrong, though. IF the authority is wrong, let God deal with it. I don't personally feel it's my place to tell my pastor what to preach on, but that doesn't mean that I unquestionally believe everything simply because he says it... Reas God's Word for yourself. Ask God to reveal where He stands, and where He wants you to stand on any given thing. I just thought I'd put my two cents in. Thanks! -Cheryl

 

Not hardly, LOL. But it does sound like the mechanics are different from what you describe in your church.

Karen