Lessons from Job

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Helen, Apr 4, 2006.

  1. Helen

    Helen
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    I have spent most of the day going through the book of Job for my husband for references for one of his lectures. Several interesting quotes sort of jumped out at me at times in relation to a lot of what has been discussed here. Here are a few of them:

    re: Calvinism --

    Can papyrus grow tall where there is no marsh?
    Can reeds thrive without water?
    While still growing and uncut, they wither more quickly than grass.
    such is the destiny of all who forget God.

    (8:11-13)

    They already knew God was real. This is in line with Romans 1 and many other Bible passages.

    re: how were people saved before the Incarnation?

    Even now my witness is in heaven;
    my advocate is on high.
    My intercessor is my friend as my eyes pour out tears to God;
    on behalf of a man he pleads with God as a man pleads for his friend.

    (16:19-21)

    I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
    And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh will I see God;
    I myself will see him with my own eyes -- I, and not another.
    How my heart yearns within me!

    (19:25-27)

    Christ as Redeemer and Intercessor has been known from the beginning. Job lived at the time of the continental division of Peleg -- he was Peleg's nephew -- Joktan's thirteenth son (see Gen. 10:29)

    Men have always known. God made it known from the beginning.

    Some choose to forget.
     
  2. Helen

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    I'm bumping this because I'd like to see some responses.
     
  3. Benjamin

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    I would also say the OT people were indwelled with the HS as shown when David implores God not to take the HS from him:

    (Psa 51:11) Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

    Shown also indwelling in the Israelites in the exodus:

    (Isa 63:10) But they rebelled, and vexed his Holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

    (Isa 63:11) Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his Holy Spirit within him?

    I agree that men always knew but not by what Name until the HS came to power in the promise; the NT saint had more but not a different way of salvation, it was all by faith in the redeemer.

    (Act 1:8) But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    Yes, Job knew that his redeemer lived!
     
  4. Eleazar the Ahohite

    Eleazar the Ahohite
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    a couple of thoughts come up

    Job is a type of the tribulation Jew.
    Job has more information on creation than Genesis
    Job has most information on Satan (Job 40,41)
     
  5. rjprince

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    Helen,

    Of course your first quote is from Bildad who said this about Job: (BTW, still praying)

    That is just a little before your section. Not sure we could cite Bildad as a man with great theological depth and understanding...

    I any case, in spite of the context, I would agree with your specific conclusion here, “They already knew God was real. This is in line with Romans 1 and many other Bible passages.”

    I would point out that this is a matter of the intellect, not the heart or the will. No C that I know of argues that men are intellectually dead, only that they are spiritually dead. The knowledge of Rom 1:18-20 is not sufficient for salvation, only for condemnation. There is no knowledge of the gospel imparted through creation, only a very basic and rudimentary awareness of a Creator. This is never enough for someone to be saved, but it is enough to provide condemnation of the basis of their universal rejection of what light God has given. Universal that is, apart from His divine intervention...

    You ask, “How were people saved before the incarnation?” I will answer that one with clear Scripture after dealing with the references you have cited...

    At least in Chapter 16 we are reading the words of Job, not one of his three “friends”. Are you suggesting on the basis of this passage that Jesus was already at the right hand of the Father making intercession on the basis of His blood that had not yet been shed? Would you suggest that Abraham had full understanding of his prophetic statement “God will provide himself a lamb”? I think you are making a real stretch to try to suggest that any Old Testament saints had much more that a very dim view of what was to happen on the cross, an impossible stretch. Even the 12 (or 11) did not understand the coming cross – even after being spoken to about it on numerous occasions.

    Again, we have Job speaking in chapter 19. Even if I were to grant that Job had anything more than a “shadow” perception of God as redeemer, which I DO NOT, it would still not have application to the unregenerate, only to those just and righteous on the basis of their faith in God. It in no way indicates that sinners can have any understanding of these things at all. In fact, the Holy Spirit only convicts the of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

    Regarding what I believe to be the Biblical answer to your question, “How were people saved before the incarnation?” Paul writes:

    Salvation is, was, and always has been by grace through faith. Noah found GRACE in the eyes of the Lord... Abraham believed God and it was counted for righteousness... David... the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin....

    Faith in what? Faith in the revealed Word of God... Faith in God that He would do what He said He would do... Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God... It is our DUTY to faithfully proclaim it to all who will listen, it is God’s duty to draw those whom He has chosen...

    Intellectual assent to the facts of creation, even intellectual assent to the details of the death burial and resurrection do not save. Faith saves. Faith alone. The devils believe and tremble, but they only have intellectual awareness, not personal saving faith that comes as a result of God grace....
     
  6. Helen

    Helen
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    Thank you for your prayers, first of all. We leave on Thursday for a month in Australia and New Zealand. The first ten days will be getting Barry's house ready to sell as his sister will not be able to live on her own again. Then a massive speaking schedule, culminated by four days in NZ, the last two of which have us scheduled for three lectures each day. Then home on May 4 with jet lag on top of it. So prayers are VERY appreciated. We're getting too old for this!

    Now, to the post.

    Yes, it was Bildad, but that makes the quote all the more interesting since he, as possibly unsaved, knows that all know God (or know He is real, if you like) and choose to forget.

    Now, they have a choice to forget, or to remember. That interests me. They are presented with acknowledged truth and forget (Job) or suppress (Romans) it. This is not what I hear from Calvinism. What I hear from Calvinists is that all men are born not knowing or acknowledging God. The Bible seems to refute this.

    And yes, while it is grace that saves, it saves THROUGH faith, and the first step in faith is intellectual belief in the existence of the one the person has faith in.

    This may be splitting hairs, but I do disagree with you that it is faith in the revealed word of God. I do think it is faith in God Himself. It is God who saves.

    When you quote 'faith comes by hearing' you are referring to a euphemism which we are only vaguely aware of today, but 'hearing' is a euphemism for 'paying attention.' Just like "do you see?" is a euphemism for understanding -- 'do you understand?'

    You can listen to someone and not 'hear' what they are saying -- it doesn't register; you are not paying attention. Just like 'seeing', this symbolism was common in older cultures as well as ours. "He who has ears to hear, let him hear" is an example of the use of this.

    So it is not physical hearing (or the deaf could never be saved), but a matter of paying attention to the Gospel, however it is presented.

    You will notice that Paul states in Romans 10, which is the passage we are referring to here, that
    "But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
    'Their voice has goine out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.'"


    This is a direct reference to Psalm 19:

    The heavens declare the glory of God;
    the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    Day after day they pour forth speech;
    night after night they display knowledge.'There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
    Their voice goes out into all the earth,
    their words to the ends of the world.


    This is not a preacher. This is creation itself declaring the truth.

    Is it the revealed word of God? Actually, I believe it is via the Gospel in the Stars, although there are those here who consider me the next best thing to an occultist, new age heretic for thinking that. But I was asked to co-author a paper with Lambert Dolphin, Malcolm Bowden, and Barry (before I had met him) and the result is on Lambert's website, here:
    http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

    Until I had read some of the other contributions, I was very skeptical of this entire thing. After I read what the men had said, I was happy to add my own small contribution. See what you think.

    Men have always known. They have always had access to the revealed word of God in this way, by way of the actual Scriptures, and even via the ancient legends regarding the Creation and Flood. Enough truth has always been there for every man to have a real choice about how to respond to the truth about the God he has always known exists.

    If we check Hebrews, we find the reason Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord -- he was a preacher of righteousness.

    If we check Paul's explanation of Genesis 15 in Galatians 3, we will find that what Abraham believed was about the Messiah and the Promise of God, as evidenced in the stars themselves (the promise of many offspring comes at two different times, both before this and after.)

    David loved the Lord. He chose to be a believer.

    As far as Job's reference to an intercessor, I cannot make any claims other than that Job seemed to be aware that there was an intercessor already at work and we know from Hebrews that there is only one intercessor between God and man, and that is Jesus Christ.

    I won't even try to go beyond that, except that maybe it is important to remember here that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8), so if that truth was true from the foundation, and only worked out in time, then there would certainly be reason to believe He had always been our intercessor as well. Job seems to indicate that. He knew that his Redeemer lived -- and that indicates that redemption was already known about, at the least, even if it had not been worked out in time yet.

    The knowledge of Romans 1, which you say was enough for condemnation but not for salvation is not a matter of either -- but an explanation of the path which is taken by those who are condemned. But the flip side of it is "seek the Lord", "don't harden your hearts", and "Come, let us reason together." These passages are just as valid! And they indicate that the unsaved man is very capable of choosing to respond positively to God.

    That is a major theme of the entire Bible.
     
  7. Benjamin

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    Well, just to let you know, I don't Helen, but I'm still scratching my head whenever I think about it. ;)
     
  8. Helen

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    That's OK. I didn't at first either. But the Bible indicates it and astronomy supports it as well. I love to hear Barry showing people the different constellations and their relation to each other in the Gospel story/promise and the names of the stars. I have become convinced that early man knew the Promise for several reasons, one of which is that it was written in the heavens themselves, which is why the Psalmist says the heavens declare the glory of God, and why Paul refers to that Psalm when he says that all men have heard.

    I think it is exciting and just like God to have taken the entire heavens to declare Himself and His plan. Kind of hard to miss that way.

    Now we have Jesus as an historical figure. But before there was just a promise of a Messiah, a Redeemer. But what a Promise!
     
  9. Timtoolman

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    I don't either (think your an occultist) but I have to say i disagree with you on that one Helen.
     
  10. Helen

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    I'm curious. Why?
     
  11. whatever

    whatever
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    I was wondering where you were going with this. I wouldn't say it that way. Men are born in enmity to God. They know He is there and they hate Him. They refuse to acknowledge Him.

    As for your final thoughts, the giving of a command does not guarantee ability to obey.
     
  12. Helen

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    I have never yet met a child who hated God.
     

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